Brad_Naylor Posted May 30, 2007 Share Posted May 30, 2007 Albert in reply: I can see what you are saying and of course no one wants to live in an Orwelian state, but serioulsy non smoking areas in pubs etc just dont work the smoke fills the room. No one is telling people what they can do in their own houses, but what about the "freedom" of people to enjoy their surroundings without breathing in harmful smoke? You do have your choice to smoke - no one is taking that away from you, but why should you be allowed to smoke in areas whre people do not - what about their freedom, so smokers can pass their habit on to everyone else in a room - where is the freedom in that? Freedom to kill other people? years ago we all used to be able to smoke on trains, tubes, planes etc i am sure people used the same arguments - that they were having their freedom taken away etc etc, so this is just progression from that, in a couple of years we will wonder why we ever smoked in public areas etc! Just as society changes, which in my opion has become more selfish and insular - laws need to be made to make people consider other people. To me its just a sign of the times. I dont agree with ID cards, absouletely shit idea! I also dont agree with the stop n search proposal - as I think we all know the police are not exactly unbiased towards certain groups of people. Its a shame we need constant CCTV but I do infact feel safer because of it - and thats the real shame. Off topic, but this country is messed up, the fact that a homeless person can be left to sleep on the streets yet if we see a stray dog the RSPCA immediately pick it up and give it a home - just renders me speechless! Anyway I welcome the non smoking I think that if anything it might encourage people to give up the killer habit..! T&B you've already won round one with the ban indoors, already you have taken it outside (bus stop) and it's not the first time anti's have moaned on here about people smoking in the street etc, what do you suggest? nobody smokes within a 10 metre radius of T&B? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tea&Biscuits Posted May 30, 2007 Share Posted May 30, 2007 Okay so if I could stop London from being smoggy I would do also - not something i can do, apart from being as environmentaly friendly as I can be - I hate the dirt, smog and pollution of London as much as I hate having a smoker stood infront of me in a crowded space blowing their smoke in my face. I just dont want to breath in other peoples fag smoke when I go out. Simple as that. Just as you think it is okay, I dont and it winds me up when I see people smoking and other people moving away to get away from it. Would anyone put their kids in a small box and blow smoke into it? Doubt it so why is it okay to do that to other people! Its just selfish isnt it? Do wht the fuck you like in your own house whatever, but why feel that its your right to impose it on others? Just as we all want a nice clean environment - this should go hand in hand with public places being smoke free and fresh so all can enjoy. Is your ciggy that important that you have to ruin the air for everyone else? If I could give you a magic pill that stopped you from smoking i reckon most smokers deep down would bite my hand off! I wouldnt mind but smoking kills and people are defending it! Anyway most smokers I know (which is becoming increasingly less as people are giving up more) agree with the ban and also are considerate and already feel like it is anti-social on a massive scale. What also makes me laugh is that loads of smokers i know wouldnt dream thesedays of smoking in their own house, they go outside cause they dont want their house to smell, and lots of people dont smoke with their kids in the room!!! Why not treat fellow humans with the same respect! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tea&Biscuits Posted May 30, 2007 Share Posted May 30, 2007 Albert in reply: I can see what you are saying and of course no one wants to live in an Orwelian state, but serioulsy non smoking areas in pubs etc just dont work the smoke fills the room. No one is telling people what they can do in their own houses, but what about the "freedom" of people to enjoy their surroundings without breathing in harmful smoke? You do have your choice to smoke - no one is taking that away from you, but why should you be allowed to smoke in areas whre people do not - what about their freedom, so smokers can pass their habit on to everyone else in a room - where is the freedom in that? Freedom to kill other people? years ago we all used to be able to smoke on trains, tubes, planes etc i am sure people used the same arguments - that they were having their freedom taken away etc etc, so this is just progression from that, in a couple of years we will wonder why we ever smoked in public areas etc! Just as society changes, which in my opion has become more selfish and insular - laws need to be made to make people consider other people. To me its just a sign of the times. I dont agree with ID cards, absouletely shit idea! I also dont agree with the stop n search proposal - as I think we all know the police are not exactly unbiased towards certain groups of people. Its a shame we need constant CCTV but I do infact feel safer because of it - and thats the real shame. Off topic, but this country is messed up, the fact that a homeless person can be left to sleep on the streets yet if we see a stray dog the RSPCA immediately pick it up and give it a home - just renders me speechless! Anyway I welcome the non smoking I think that if anything it might encourage people to give up the killer habit..! T&B you've already won round one with the ban indoors, already you have taken it outside (bus stop) and it's not the first time anti's have moaned on here about people smoking in the street etc, what do you suggest? nobody smokes within a 10 metre radius of T&B? Yea i would love that actually then i wouldnt be gagging in the morning when i get face full of smoke...! Someone invent an invisible shield - so that non smokers can not be harmed by the smokers, cause obv smoking in the street is much more important than having healthy lungs!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
When Skies Are Grey Posted May 30, 2007 Share Posted May 30, 2007 I would have thought that living in London, second hand cigarette smoke in the air would be the least of your worries. The main draw back of banning smoking in pubs is that there is nothing to mask the sell of wee and sweaty clientele......ban the ban!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tea&Biscuits Posted May 30, 2007 Share Posted May 30, 2007 I just wnt to say that even when I was a smoker, I never defended it or my right to smoke as deep down I was so resentful of this habit I was hooked on - I never disallusioned myself that smoking was a good thing and that I enjoyed it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sarahc Posted May 30, 2007 Share Posted May 30, 2007 I used to smoke loads. Never got black snot or phlegm till I visited London for a weekend. T&B there is something you can do about it - leave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tea&Biscuits Posted May 30, 2007 Share Posted May 30, 2007 I would have thought that living in London, second hand cigarette smoke in the air would be the least of your worries. Just to clear up....I dont live in London anymore - I live in Middlesex, in the countryside (slightly!) and yes I hated all the pollution of London and the other shit that went on with a city - I lived in London for work/study and it offered lots of adventure for my twenties, but yes I have now moved out. It doesnt really matter where you live - we all have lots of things in our areas that could be worse than second hand smoke, Selafield on your doorstep, phone masts in peoples back yards, its not simply about comparing dangerous situations/areas with the right to want to socialise/enjoy stuff without being smoked out! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tea&Biscuits Posted May 30, 2007 Share Posted May 30, 2007 I used to smoke loads. Never got black snot or phlegm till I visited London for a weekend. T&B there is something you can do about it - leave. Leave where? What are you on about? Does pollution kill more people that smoking related diseases in the UK? Im not stating this, I just want to know if it does? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Peters Posted May 30, 2007 Share Posted May 30, 2007 OK - enough. We've started the circular monthly argument about smoking, and it's probably best to acknowledge that the votes will end up around 30% for and 70% against. Back to my earlier posts, and I'm not saying (and have never said) smoking is a good thing (I'd give up tomorrow if I could). But I'm a self-confessed addict and no amount of graphic descriptions of a horrible end will change that...and I DO have personal experience of losing people to cancer. If I develop it, I'll be in the VIP express checkout lounge LONG before a morphine pump becomes my New Best Friend. So let's re-weave the thread and address a wider issue - the nanny state - which frequently comes up in the smoking threads. According to various news sources today Shoplifters facing on-the-spot fines could have the penalties written off if they promise to behave. Fines of £80 or £50 will be deferred if the offender agrees to be bound by an Acceptable Behaviour Contract (ABC). The British Retail Consortium (BRC) has criticised the scheme for treating criminals "like naughty schoolboys". Shadow Home Secretary David Davis said it watered down criminal justice but the Home Office said it was a different tool to help police tackle the problem. The penalty will be cancelled if the person behaves during the ABC which can last as little as three months. Question is, can I run up dozens of motoring fines and be let off?? Or am I part of the law-abiding majority which expects rules to apply equally to all sections of society? Legal motorists are constantly hammered for minor infractions, yet criminal recidivists are too hard to cope with, have no money (or intention) to pay fines, and the jails are already full. So let's ignore them and go for the easier target... As the Safespeed campaigners have said today, the UK legal system (and it's usually only a matter of time before we follow) has decided that many motorists are 'worse than thieves' Paul Smith, founder of SafeSpeed.org.uk, said: "If anyone needed proof that the Home Office is not fit for purpose this is it. They now rate ordinary motorists in receipt of a technical speeding fine as 'worse than thieves." "Motorists could be forgiven for thinking that the world has gone barking mad." "If fining drivers for minor speeding offences made the roads safer it might make sense, but we ARE fining drivers, the roads aren't getting safer and it doesn't make any sense at all." "In topsy turvy Britain motorists pay fines and criminals go free. Who will save us from this utter madness?" Mostly these days, I'm glad I'm getting old. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinahand Posted May 30, 2007 Share Posted May 30, 2007 I realize Stu Peter's wants to redirect this thread in one particular way - but I want to move it in another direction. Death and euthenasia. It looks like he's edited them away [is that right Stu or was I fantasizing] but I was really struck by Stu's comments that he didn't want to end his days pissing into a bag at 70 and so would be happy to be taken earlier. This ignores the obvious fact that if the ciggies do get you Stu you'll be pissing into a bag and much worse when your 50 or whatever - and if you think pissing into a bag is the worse of your indignities you really need to know more about lung cancer! Alot of the smokers go "I'm living my life the way I want to live it and everyone else can go jump." Ok - but death is a big thing - and the way people go who suffer progressive cancer or emphesemia is really a horrible way to die - gasping and clutching for every breath until there is no more breath to take. I'm amazed that people whine about their rights to poison themselves and the people around them with such agression and passion - especially when more likely than not they'll have to go through such a horrible death. Oh and the term more than likely is statistically accurate - its over 50% with smoking - just think about that - more than 50% of smokers will die prematurely from a smoking related condition. If you and your partner smokes think about it - there's a high probability one of you will have to nurse the other one through to an early grave. It will not be a nice experience. Is the pleasure you get from your ciggies really worth it? Honest, uncomprehending question. I want to spend my 70s taking my grand kids to the park, complaining about the youth of today, enjoying the sunshine and winter gales and getting the most from life. I'd agree with Stu if my only options were senility, pissing into a bag, and isolation I'd rather take a pill and say good by. I really support Death with Dignity. I assume most smokers do to - Stu's [now deleted?] post seems to show he does. Smoking isn't like the TT or climbing Everest - a supreme event taking on chance for a moment of either victory or death. Its a drip of tiny pleasures which may give you a long drawn out, painful death. I can understand people saying they want to challenge the world and take the risk they'll die doing it. But I don't get why people smoke - my only assumption is they either block out the prospects of death, assume they'll be taken, painlessly, by something else, or hope they'll be able to euthenaise themselves. Is that right? Stu, Albert etc care to comment? Sorry for being morbid - but isn't it ultimately the entire point about all these pro and anti smoking thread? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Peters Posted May 30, 2007 Share Posted May 30, 2007 No edits or deletions in my posts Chinahand - except a minor grammatical faux pas which I corrected quickly for fear of ridicule from more erudite workmates. There is nothing you can tell me about dying from lung cancer, as I thought I'd made clear earlier. But here's the thing: having smoked now for 36 years, the damage is probably done. Giving up tomorrow is unlikely to affect MY future a jot (although I would heartily encourage anyone younger to quit on health grounds). I'm just hoping that if I do succumb to the disease it is as a tired old man ready for the big sleep anyway. One of my favourite quotes (by Hunter S Thompson I think) is: “Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming: “Wow, what a ride!!” Euthanasia is SUCH a complex issue that I think I could argue both sides of the debate. But as far as death with dignity is concerned (a different but linked issue), I think it's the very cornerstone of human rights. My biggest fear as a rational human is in one day losing the ability (maybe through stroke, injury or paralysis) to decide if I've had enough, and have the option of doing something about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xbones Posted May 30, 2007 Share Posted May 30, 2007 One of my favourite quotes (by Hunter S Thompson I think) is: “Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming: “Wow, what a ride!!” Can't disagree with that. How does smoking make it a better ride? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Login Posted May 30, 2007 Share Posted May 30, 2007 I do not have a problem with this part of your argument, the rest is your normal spiel. However frequently when you post it I ask the same question to which you never reply to. It is simply this. Please explain how you expect to be able to smoke and exhale in a public enviroment without affecting others. If it is a pub who is going to serve and collect the glasses, empty the ash trays. Who is going to clean it, come in and do repairs. How are door staff meant to eject unruly drinkers. If the police are required should they just ask the miscreant to step outside so they can apprehend them. Put simply I do not believe it is possible to smoke in general public spaces without affecting others in some way. Explain how you can and how such legislation would not be abused I will have no problem backing for a change in legislation in those circumstances. Come on for once rather than repeat old arguments and moan about nannyism think for your self and give us something concrete to back We should never have the freedom to dicate to others when they are doing something 'risky' which only affects themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Login Posted May 30, 2007 Share Posted May 30, 2007 I do not know i you describe your self as a journalist or as a presenter or just a jobbing radio hack. Either way as a presenter and interviewer on Manx radio's main news programmes I would have hoped that you could argue both sides of the debate on most topics whether or not you agree with them so us the poor listener can at least hear a interviewee being questioned rather than just given a free rein to spout their spiel. Euthanasia is SUCH a complex issue that I think I could argue both sides of the debate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gladys Posted May 30, 2007 Share Posted May 30, 2007 lots of people dont smoke with their kids in the room!!! Why not treat fellow humans with the same respect! Kids are humans. Well, at least mine are! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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