New Vehicle Systems For Dot

[bluemonday]

Just read that register article. Whilst I wouldn't dispute M$ has the off the shelf software, open source is just dismissed out of hand. Also I'd question the blanket statement he makes regarding security issues in M$. Granted there's more work in open source but that's just getting the right people to run it. His main line seems to be paring the IT support to the bare minimum and given certain circumstances, that might not work out - still time will tell. M$ will be happy with the money. Any idea what that would work out at?

[ai_Droid]

Just read that register article. Whilst I wouldn't dispute M$ has the off the shelf software, open source is just dismissed out of hand. Also I'd question the blanket statement he makes regarding security issues in M$. Granted there's more work in open source but that's just getting the right people to run it. His main line seems to be paring the IT support to the bare minimum and given certain circumstances, that might not work out - still time will tell. M$ will be happy with the money. Any idea what that would work out at?

 

You just look like a bigoted linux dick for writing 'm$'. Get a grip?

[Cambon]

Ha! Quotes like that make me laugh.

 

However, in all seriousness, who are all these software companies on the Island who are capable of taking on a project of this size?

 

Basically, there are none. Sure, it may be possible to do a project like this locally by bringing in a load of contractors, but they cost a lot. By the time you figure that into your costs it becomes too expensive. Jersey has more software development capability than here. That is a simple fact. That is why the Manx Electricity Authority system, amongst others, came from Jersey.

 

 

what a joke.

 

sounds like a pretty straight forward database, would take me two months for them to have a completed system

[P.K.]

Having had a look at the teleologica site (sad I know) something struck me as a bit odd. It took me a little while to figure out what it was. Basically the site has nothing but cut-and-paste quotes, cut-and-paste links on very vague generalisations on how to run an e-business project etc etc and even a link to the daily Dilbert (have we got the Organ Grinder or the Monkey here?). But basically it's all padding. There is nothing of any significance at all. Only one real case history in presentation form (Caesar) for Jersey Customs and Excise and that's it.

 

Normally I would expect names, profiles of personnel, projects completed on time, reference sells etc etc. But here there is nothing. So how were they chosen?

 

In competitive tendering you have to do more than just look at the quotes. Golden Rule Number One - if the quote is too good to be true then it probably is. Some companies go in far too low to win the business and then costs strangely escalate. Some genuinely take you on as a loss leader for future sales elsewhere. Which brings us on to Golden Rule Number 2 - cheap does not have to represent value for money. Anyone who has run projects like this will tell you that ongoing maintenance costs hang over these systems like the Sword of Damocles. You have to think long-term. So seperating the wheat from the chaff when the quotes come in can be a very tricky business.

 

I also had a look at Eleks Software clicky. Their site is what I would have expected from teleologica. Names, projects, profiles etc etc. They seem like they know their business. So I suspect that teleologica is just a front for a few seemingly anonymous individuals who will "manage" the project for you with Eleks naturally doing the work. Of course, your money (because it is yours, there's no such thing as Bank of Tynwald) will be paid to teleologica who will then pass on a proportion of it to Eleks, making them paid appropriately one would assume, keeping the rest for services rendered.

 

So I wonder who is actually behind teleologica and what value add they bring to the party? Any ideas anyone?

[joeyconcrete]

Having had a look at the teleologica site (sad I know) something struck me as a bit odd. It took me a little while to figure out what it was. Basically the site has nothing but cut-and-paste quotes, cut-and-paste links on very vague generalisations on how to run an e-business project etc etc and even a link to the daily Dilbert (have we got the Organ Grinder or the Monkey here?). But basically it's all padding. There is nothing of any significance at all. Only one real case history in presentation form (Caesar) for Jersey Customs and Excise and that's it.

 

This is starting to head off-topic. All the same time, you got me googling. http://www.coutanche.com/index.html. On the face of it, if Eleks are used - its essentially being outsourced to the Ukraine. Eleks seem very competant and are probably far cheaper than any UK firms - so on that basis its a win-win situation. That said - there are the issues you highlighted and the fact some may be uncomfortable that local government work is being outsourced to an outsourcer (and potentially to the Ukraine). At the end of the day, its a done deal now and time will tell. Interesting all the same!

 

EDIT - and websites that list endless technical terms to get search hits also may me highly suspicious.

[manxman8180]

What's wrong with the Ukraine?

 

One World - One Love.

 

Peace.

[Albert Tatlock]

Having had a look at the teleologica site (sad I know) something struck me as a bit odd. It took me a little while to figure out what it was. Basically the site has nothing but cut-and-paste quotes, cut-and-paste links on very vague generalisations on how to run an e-business project etc etc and even a link to the daily Dilbert (have we got the Organ Grinder or the Monkey here?). But basically it's all padding. There is nothing of any significance at all. Only one real case history in presentation form (Caesar) for Jersey Customs and Excise and that's it.

 

Normally I would expect names, profiles of personnel, projects completed on time, reference sells etc etc. But here there is nothing. So how were they chosen?

 

In competitive tendering you have to do more than just look at the quotes. Golden Rule Number One - if the quote is too good to be true then it probably is. Some companies go in far too low to win the business and then costs strangely escalate. Some genuinely take you on as a loss leader for future sales elsewhere. Which brings us on to Golden Rule Number 2 - cheap does not have to represent value for money. Anyone who has run projects like this will tell you that ongoing maintenance costs hang over these systems like the Sword of Damocles. You have to think long-term. So seperating the wheat from the chaff when the quotes come in can be a very tricky business.

 

I also had a look at Eleks Software clicky. Their site is what I would have expected from teleologica. Names, projects, profiles etc etc. They seem like they know their business. So I suspect that teleologica is just a front for a few seemingly anonymous individuals who will "manage" the project for you with Eleks naturally doing the work. Of course, your money (because it is yours, there's no such thing as Bank of Tynwald) will be paid to teleologica who will then pass on a proportion of it to Eleks, making them paid appropriately one would assume, keeping the rest for services rendered.

 

So I wonder who is actually behind teleologica and what value add they bring to the party? Any ideas anyone?

Yeh I thought that when I looked before starting the thread. The site looks like an MBA in marketing syllabus.

 

Incidentally, the firm is also in the directory of the Institute of Chartered Accountants in England & Wales

[P.K.]

Jersey has more software development capability than here. That is a simple fact.

Errrr... it's being outsourced by Jersey to the Ukraine.

 

I thought that when I looked before starting the thread. The site (teleologica) looks like an MBA in marketing syllabus.

 

Incidentally, the firm is also in the directory of the Institute of Chartered Accountants in England & Wales

My concern is that the teleologica website looks like a smoke and mirrors job to me. No names, no pack drill. The danger with using consultants to hire more consultants to get the job done is that the relationships between them can turn out to be far too "cosy" to be comfortable for me. Especially when it leads to adding further (expensive) tiers of "project management" to the cost.

 

So who are teleologica and how did they win the tender? Someone must know somewhere....

[scittney]

i wasn't joking cambon, a database for logging vehicle details and sending out car tax reminders would be extremly simple to knock up.

[Alias]

i wasn't joking cambon, a database for logging vehicle details and sending out car tax reminders would be extremly simple to knock up.

Undoubtedly it could, but the government has the task of making sure public money is not wasted -- such as could be with a project that ends up tits-up. Presumably previous experience is one of the main criterion the gov. look at, could you offer a portfolio of similar projects for example?

[scittney]

oddly enough yes. i've recently completed a fleet maintenance database for a large company on the island. not dissimilar tbh.

[GD4ELI]

What's wrong with the Ukraine?

 

One World - One Love.

 

Peace.

I work with programmers from Russia and the Ukraine. Quality is staggering, their command of English puts native English speakers to shame.

[ThieBane]

I think the issue here is the process whereby the Government's IS department decides it doesn't have to bother Treasury with that pesky tendering process. Having worked in large scale corporate IT, I know that whenever that happens people tend to get lazy and complacent about quality. On both sides. There's nearly always some sort of kickback going on somewhere too. I do think the government needs to seriously review its tendering processes to ensure that, as someone mentioned elsewhere, that in addition to price, quality is a factor too. It's all very well sending it out to Jersey via the Ukraine, but what about ongoing maintenance, training and development. In the long run it could well be easier with a local company once travel costs etc are factored in.

 

As was very appositely put before, it's not bank o'Tynwald. It's our cash.

[Cambon]

i wasn't joking cambon, a database for logging vehicle details and sending out car tax reminders would be extremly simple to knock up.

 

Probably, but by the time it has had the hardware infrastructure put in place, has been unit/ system tested, relevant training of users completed, takeon of manual (or other) data, parallel tested, regression tested, etc., etc.

 

Of course before you can start your 2 month jolly, you need to undertake the relevant analysis and design, specify it, and have it accepted by the government.

 

On the face of it, it will be a good 18 month to two year project from when it starts.

 

 

PK - I don't think Teleologica actually outsource to the Ukraine, control of their projects remains in Jersey they just use Elek as a A/P bureau service.

 

GD4ELI - I am with you on the quality front, and the "English" one too.

[Albert Tatlock]

GD4ELI - I am with you on the quality front, and the "English" one too.

But isn't that really yet another reason why they should be encouraging the work to be done here and overseeing higher standards? I know several local programmers and several local companies easily capable of this work - and most of them spokes good England too!

 

The danger of constantly outsourcing work to Jobrobistan is that we diminish our own skill base. When India, China and Eastern Europe come fully online, and finance and software eventually all gets done there, at minimum wage rates or even less - what are we going to be left doing?

 

I would guestimate; unless this company intend to subcontract island based people; that in this case the government have effectively destroyed a couple of local jobs for a couple of years (e.g. obviously 3 people for 1 year = 3 manyears), and stopped local people gaining further experience and building competitive business experience to market their skills elsewhere to bring money back into OUR economy etc.

 

Using our own money to undermine our own economy, at a time when we are trying to expand the economy, is inept. All this in one of the main sectors they should be encouraging to develop and thrive here. Gaining government contract experience enables companies to build a robust company CV which they can then market to some of the high-value, high-quality sectors such as satellite and aerospace engineering etc. where a good business CV is essential. This isn't a rocket-science project, and would be ideal for some relatively young Manx company to undertake to build such a CV.

 

Whoever made this decision needs their arse kicked AFAIAC.