Of All The Half Baked Daft Ideas..

[ai_Droid]

That top ten list is the perfect example of why the new taxes are so unfair. Most of the cars do not fit in the lowest tax category but they are the lowest CO2 producers. This is a seriously unfair tax.

The only way to tax CO2 is on useage.

Scrap road tax altogether. Add 5p to a litre in tax. IT IS THE ONLY FAIR WAY!!!

 

They're all small engines, all bar one under 2l, seems to justify the taxt to me. Lets look at an up to date (petrol) chart:

 

Manufacturer Model Specification Transmission Combined MPG VED Band 
smart roadster 80 bhp (205 tyres) A6 55.80 C 
TOYOTA Aygo 1.0 VVT-i 3 & 5-door Multi5 51.40 B 
TOYOTA Aygo 1.0 VVT-i 3 & 5-door M5 51.40 B 
CITROEN C1 1.0i M5 51.40 B 
PEUGEOT 107 1.0 (65 bhp) M5 51.30 B 
PEUGEOT 107 1.0 (65 bhp) A5 51.30 B 
smart fortwo coupe 61 bhp 175 rear tyres SM6 47.10 B 
smart fortwo coupe 50 bhp 175 rear tyres SM6 47.10 B 
smart fortwo cabrio 61 bhp 175 rear tyres SM6 47.10 B 
DAIHATSU Charade L251 1.0L EFi M5 47.10 B

 

Oh look, the small engines have the highest mpg shocker.

 

And diesel:

 

Manufacturer Model Specification Fuel Type Transmission Combined MPG VED Band 
HONDA Insight Insight Petrol Hybrid M5 83.10 A 
CITROEN C2 1.4 HDi Diesel M5 68.90 B 
CITROEN C1 1.4 HDi Diesel M5 68.90 B 
RENAULT Clio  1.5 dCi 80 Diesel M5 67.30 B 
CITROEN C2 1.4 HDi SensoDrive Diesel A5 67.30 B 
CITROEN C3 1.4 HDi Diesel M5 67.30 B 
RENAULT Clio  1.5 dCi 100 Diesel M5 65.80 B 
RENAULT Clio  1.5 dCi 65 Diesel M5 65.80 B 
CITROEN C2 1.4 HDi Diesel M5 65.70 B 
TOYOTA Prius 1.5 VVT-i Hybrid Petrol Hybrid E-CVT 65.70 B

 

Small engines ftw. The tax is perfectly justified by this data.

 

I agree, fuel tax increases are another way, but people wont notice a few quid extra when filling up, it certainly wont persuade them to change car, even if its a significant amount annually. They will notice a double car tax bill in a lump sum.

 

Data from http://www.fuel-economy.co.uk/mpg.php, which also shows emissions. That merc Amadeas was banging on about fits in Co2 emission band E, pretty nasty. The smart FourTwo is band B, highest placed.

[Albert Tatlock]

Scrap road tax altogether. Add 5p to a litre in tax. IT IS THE ONLY FAIR WAY!!!

It's not a fair way. Petrol in the UK is already far more expensive in the UK/Isle of Man than in Europe (where UK has second/third highest petrol prices) and other many developed countries (e.g. US where it is 50% of what we pay here). This problem is a world problem, not a problem that can be solved just by the UK/Isle of Man. Why should we disadvantage ourselves economically by raising our taxes further independently? Why should the poor be forced off the roads (high vehicle tax, high petrol costs and tolls etc.) just so that the rich can have more space and not feel so guilty about emissions?

 

The real answer lies in getting vehicles off the road. You can only do that fairly by placing restrictions that apply equally across rich and poor, such as the number of cars that can be owned by a family, investing in public transport and banning cars in towns/cities to encourage the use of public transport, and reducing the number of drivers through population control.

[Cambon]

The real answer lies in getting vehicles off the road. You can only do that fairly by placing restrictions that apply equally across rich and poor, such as the number of cars that can be owned by a family, investing in public transport and banning cars in towns/cities to encourage the use of public transport, and reducing the number of drivers through population control.

 

Well, that does not work in Bermuda who are decades ahead in respect of limited size / ownership, etc.

And, how clean is public transport really? I mean, a bus uses a 50 year old design, 12 litre engine, and only approches full capacity during rush hours. The rest of the time they drive around virtually empty.

 

Population control will never work (population expansion and the survival of the spieces is why we are here), but raising the driving age would help.

[Mr. Sausages]

So long as they sell petrol, it will be used at at least the same rate it is now. Taxing it won't save the planet, it'll just make the Gov wealthier. They need to either stop/reduce the use of petrol, or reduce the negative effects of using petrol.

 

Cars with less emissions, or electric cars are the way to do this. It might not be fair short term to those with old cars or big engines but it has to happen sooner or later and some people will always come off worse than others. Life's not fair. Never has been, never will be.

[ai_Droid]

The real answer lies in getting vehicles off the road. You can only do that fairly by placing restrictions that apply equally across rich and poor, such as the number of cars that can be owned by a family, investing in public transport and banning cars in towns/cities to encourage the use of public transport, and reducing the number of drivers through population control.

 

All true and desirable longer term goals, but it doesn't stop this tax incentive from having a positive effect in the mean time.

[Cambon]

That top ten list is the perfect example of why the new taxes are so unfair. Most of the cars do not fit in the lowest tax category but they are the lowest CO2 producers. This is a seriously unfair tax.

The only way to tax CO2 is on useage.

Scrap road tax altogether. Add 5p to a litre in tax. IT IS THE ONLY FAIR WAY!!!

 

They're all small engines, all bar one under 2l, seems to justify the taxt to me. Lets look at an up to date (petrol) chart:

 

 

You have lost the plot. Go back to the government document. It states that only the lowest band gats a reduction, everyone else gets increases. Therefore 8 out of 10 of that greenest car list will get their tax increased, including the Prius. Unfair!

[ai_Droid]

So long as they sell petrol, it will be used at at least the same rate it is now. Taxing it won't save the planet, it'll just make the Gov wealthier.

 

You got anything to back that up? You think taxing smoking has nothing to do with its decline in popularity?

[ai_Droid]

You have lost the plot. Go back to the government document. It states that only the lowest band gats a reduction, everyone else gets increases. Therefore 8 out of 10 of that greenest car list will get their tax increased, including the Prius. Unfair!

 

An increase against current rates doesn't matter a jot, motoring is more expensive these days, news at 10. What matters is the price in relation to the bigger engines to discourage those.

[Mr. Sausages]

So long as they sell petrol, it will be used at at least the same rate it is now. Taxing it won't save the planet, it'll just make the Gov wealthier.

 

You got anything to back that up?

 

Petrol sales.

 

The taxation (and cost relative to inflation) has been increasing for decades. As has the sale of petrol.

[ai_Droid]

Petrol sales.

The taxation (and cost relative to inflation) has been increasing for decades. As has the sale of petrol.

 

In the usa, where petrol is taxed less, they drive on average much larger cars and have the lowest commercial average mpg rates in the world. I think that's a pretty good indicator that petrol tax does influence consumption.

 

Edit: Just looked it up, and you're talking arse, UK petrol sales have been progressive decline seen since 1997 according to the "The UK Retail Marketing Survey, published with the EI’s April issue of Petroleum Review". Care to quote your source that says its been increasing for decades?

[Mr. Sausages]

Petrol sales.

The taxation (and cost relative to inflation) has been increasing for decades. As has the sale of petrol.

 

In the usa, where petrol is taxed less, they drive on average much larger cars and have the lowest commercial average mpg rates in the world. I think that's a pretty good indicator that petrol tax does influence consumption.

 

I'm not saying it doesn't influence it.

 

They have lower average mpg in the US because of the cars they use, yes. But if they increase the taxes sufficiently they'll just change the size of the engines. The mpg per individual vehicle might go down, but as car usage and manufacturing worldwide increases year on year, so does petrol usage.

 

It doen't really matter how big the engines are. The world's reverves of fossil fuels are finite, and they WILL be burned no matter how expensive it is for the end user.

[ai_Droid]

I'm not saying it doesn't influence it.

 

You said that no matter what the rate of tax, petrol sales will increase. That's not been the case in this country.

 

They have lower average mpg in the US because of the cars they use, yes. But if they increase the taxes sufficiently they'll just change the size of the engines. The mpg per individual vehicle might go down, but as car usage and manufacturing worldwide increases year on year, so does petrol usage.

 

Think about it, it's very simple multiplication. If car usage is spraling as you say, with big engines you use a lot more petrol than car usage spiraling with smaller more efficient engines, get it?

 

It doen't really matter how big the engines are. The world's reverves of fossil fuels are finite, and they WILL be burned no matter how expensive it is for the end user.

 

That's true, but it's all about rate of consumption and atmospheric co2. The rate is what we're seeking to control, at least long enough to develop viable alternatives.

[Cambon]

An increase against current rates doesn't matter a jot, motoring is more expensive these days, news at 10. What matters is the price in relation to the bigger engines to discourage those.

 

 

How? If someone is spending £180,000 on a supercar that gets 10 mpg, how is charging them an extra £300 going g to stop them? Is it even going to make them think? Having to pay around £100 everytime they they fill up will be a constant reminder. They will still pay it but maybe drive that car a bit less in favour of a second, more economical car.

[ai_Droid]

How? If someone is spending £180,000 on a supercar that gets 10 mpg, how is charging them an extra £300 going g to stop them? Is it even going to make them think? Having to pay around £100 everytime they they fill up will be a constant reminder. They will still pay it but maybe drive that car a bit less in favour of a second, more economical car.

 

This is getting circular. There are, as I said, individual examples where this doesn't make sense. There aren't that many 180k supercars on the isle of man, so it's not aimed at those. There are a lot of 3.5-5 ltr 4x4 chelsie tractors, and extra tax for those may influence their sales.

[Mr. Sausages]

I'm not saying it doesn't influence it.

 

You said that no matter what the rate of tax, petrol sales will increase. That's not been the case in this country.

 

I accept your quote that there has been a decline since 1997 in the UK, however you were selective about what you quoted. "Motor fuel sales boomed in 2006, but UK forecourts still closed at one a day rate. The latest UK Retail Marketing Survey, conducted by the Energy Institute (EI), shows that in 2006,

petrol sales reversed the progressive decline seen since 1997, with a year-on-year increase of

572,000 tonnes, or 3.1%."

 

Think about it, it's very simple multiplication. If car usage is spraling as you say, with big engines you use a lot more petrol than car usage spiraling with smaller more efficient engines, get it? ... That's true, but it's all about rate of consumption and atmospheric co2. The rate is what we're seeking to control, at least long enough to develop viable alternatives.

Yes slim, i 'get it' (are you capable of debate without patronisation?), which is why I posted earlier in the thread about the need to reduce the effects of using petrol. Petrol usage worldwide however, will never reduce significantly enough worldwide UNTIL there are viable alternatives. It's a fantasy to think otherwise, unfortunately.