Slim Posted July 19, 2007 Share Posted July 19, 2007 as for crap sound quality, vinyl has a frequency response of over 40khz whereas cd has it cut off at 22kh...it has to "guess" what the sound should be in the result of surface damage......... Rot. Vinyl has a theoretically higher frequency response, that's all it is, theoretical. You'll never, in practice have a vinyl stylus go much over 20khz. You're not hearing much past there anyway, so it's a pointless specification. Error correctoin on a CD doesn't 'guess' at anything. Imagine how your pc's files on a cd would work if the CD format guessed like you suggested? The fact is, if you get something that's recorded onto analog then mastered onto cd or encoded to lossless digital it's got all the warmth your on about, none of the fragility, none of the hiss, pops and crap, it's nicely tagged, backupable, portable and flexible. Only luddites thing vinyl is superior. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebees Posted July 19, 2007 Share Posted July 19, 2007 I love records and their covers. I miss record shopping but Im generally lazy, all the new music I find is on MySpace. I quite like the hissing and scratches on all my old albums, reminds me how much I used to love them. Shame I keep breaking record players I got a dead ace Technics one, computerised something or other, I only moved the arm a little bit, hardly touched it, 'ping', something popped out, never to go back in again and now... me fancy record player is busted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ray marshall Posted July 19, 2007 Share Posted July 19, 2007 as for crap sound quality, vinyl has a frequency response of over 40khz whereas cd has it cut off at 22kh...it has to "guess" what the sound should be in the result of surface damage......... Rot. Vinyl has a theoretically higher frequency response, that's all it is, theoretical. You'll never, in practice have a vinyl stylus go much over 20khz. You're not hearing much past there anyway, so it's a pointless specification. Error correctoin on a CD doesn't 'guess' at anything. Imagine how your pc's files on a cd would work if the CD format guessed like you suggested? The fact is, if you get something that's recorded onto analog then mastered onto cd or encoded to lossless digital it's got all the warmth your on about, none of the fragility, none of the hiss, pops and crap, it's nicely tagged, backupable, portable and flexible. Only luddites thing vinyl is superior. yes cd does have to guess...thats why its called error correction, in the white book or whatever for cd the math for the system to find out if that bit should be a one or a zero is hideous.....and its not rot about vinyl having the theoretical higher frequency range at all.....thats why its warmer.....cutting the response down to 22 was the only way to reduce disc size, therefore digital conversion throws out frequencies it doesnt need....and there goes the lovely analogue warmth, having the extra frequencies captures the ambience of the music adding depth to it.....cd's always sound far too clinical.....you are correct about anything over 22k is a waste as the human ear cant detect anything higher......but i suppose you know better Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slim Posted July 19, 2007 Share Posted July 19, 2007 yes cd does have to guess...thats why its called error correction, in the white book or whatever for cd the math for the system to find out if that bit should be a one or a zero is hideous..... You mean red book? CD's have very effective error correction on the data layer which will recover data from a scratch with no loss and certainly no guessing. For large amounts of missing data, a data cd will fail where an audio cd will plug on, but we're talking about a seriously fucked disk. How would vinyl recover from a seriously fucked disk? You'd get awful noise, and you'd probably get a stylus jumping all over the show. and its not rot about vinyl having the theoretical higher frequency range at all.....thats why its warmer.....cutting the response down to 22 was the only way to reduce disc size, therefore digital conversion throws out frequencies it doesnt need....and there goes the lovely analogue warmth, having the extra frequencies captures the ambience of the music adding depth to it.....cd's always sound far too clinical.....you are correct about anything over 22k is a waste as the human ear cant detect anything higher......but i suppose you know better Yep, I do know better. As I said above, the 'warmth' is the lack of quality, it's the hiss and pops you hear. Listen to something mastered on analog on a cd and you get exactly the same 'warm' sound. You said it yourself, cd's sound clinical, your ear likes lower quality sound. Nothing to do with any romantic shite like ambiance, certainly nothing to do with any technical superiority of vinyl. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ray marshall Posted July 21, 2007 Share Posted July 21, 2007 yes cd does have to guess...thats why its called error correction, in the white book or whatever for cd the math for the system to find out if that bit should be a one or a zero is hideous..... You mean red book? CD's have very effective error correction on the data layer which will recover data from a scratch with no loss and certainly no guessing. For large amounts of missing data, a data cd will fail where an audio cd will plug on, but we're talking about a seriously fucked disk. How would vinyl recover from a seriously fucked disk? You'd get awful noise, and you'd probably get a stylus jumping all over the show. and its not rot about vinyl having the theoretical higher frequency range at all.....thats why its warmer.....cutting the response down to 22 was the only way to reduce disc size, therefore digital conversion throws out frequencies it doesnt need....and there goes the lovely analogue warmth, having the extra frequencies captures the ambience of the music adding depth to it.....cd's always sound far too clinical.....you are correct about anything over 22k is a waste as the human ear cant detect anything higher......but i suppose you know better Yep, I do know better. As I said above, the 'warmth' is the lack of quality, it's the hiss and pops you hear. Listen to something mastered on analog on a cd and you get exactly the same 'warm' sound. You said it yourself, cd's sound clinical, your ear likes lower quality sound. Nothing to do with any romantic shite like ambiance, certainly nothing to do with any technical superiority of vinyl. slim, my info is from someone who actually cut vinyl for prt/pye records in his day, and was also a sound engineer for the bbc and is far more intelligent than you or me....so i think i'll take his word over yours. cd cannot capture all the frequencies that vinyl has when the first thing thats done in the digital conversion is throw out the ones it cant use.... try actually listening for once.... you have got to be one of those killjoys in life that has to argue every fucking thing to get your own way..... not to mention that vinyl has seen a resurgence, again, cd's are on the way down, so much for a format thats supposed to be dead and buried... how can warmth be lack of quality?...if cd is all that then why is the ambience just not there?....and the clinical sound comes from the lack of depth on the cd conversion....thats why they tried to fix that with sacd and dvd-a, not just for surround sound either but to recapture what was lost thru 22k limits on cd's......cd error correction isnt all that good at all....i have a quite a few cd's that still play but with noticable clicks or even bizzare sounds where the disc is scratched, i'll take a simple jump in vinyl over a horrible stuck cd sound anyday of the week.....besides not all jumps in records are unrecoverable, but i suppose after nearly 25 years of playing records i dont know?.. you can put the sales down to romanticism if you want, and im sure you will, but you underestimate the tactile side of actually having something to hold, sleeve notes where you dont have to squint, and ofcourse the artwork...and the simple joy of looking after it, cd's have made people lazy to a degree, my mates car is littered with cd's out the cases, then he bitches when they wont play anymore....dont see anyone doing that with vinyl end of. now, back to topic please Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slim Posted July 21, 2007 Share Posted July 21, 2007 you have got to be one of those killjoys in life that has to argue every fucking thing to get your own way..... Haha, quality. You're agruing in favour of a format that's effectively dead, and dead for good reason and you're calling me a argumentative killjoy? You can get as starryeyed as you like and pull some 'my friend is cleverer than your dad' bull, the fact is Vinyl is worse quality and that's what most nostalgic people prefer about it. I like analog recordings too, the White stripes stuff sounds great, but that's all it is, nasty quality to get a particular sound. It's not warmth or ambiance, it's just bad quality making it less clinincal than the more accurate CD. The demonstratable better product is cd. Even better than that, lossless digital downloads which kicks the shite out of both CD and vinyl. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ray marshall Posted July 22, 2007 Share Posted July 22, 2007 so why is vinyl still around? cd is barely 30 odd years old and for an alledgedly superior format its already getting the shit kicked out of it, downloads are being found wanting...... so just one artist sounds good on analogue?..are you that fucking closed off?.....i got icky thump on vinyl, its an ok cut but there are better analogue recordings, sounds to me like you are just so closed minded and that your path is the right one and you cant understand why people dont agree with you. starry eyed has got nothing to do with any of this, its choice pure and simple the pure and simple fact is that when it comes to a media for owning music, vinyl is by far my preffered choice, with cd and digital downloads as a last resort, i like the sound from vinyl pure and simple, and i know im not the only one that does...... so much so i just ordered £70 worth of new techno for my wednesday shows.....why?.....because nearly all of the ones ive ordered isnt available on digital download or your cd...so much for the superior, ill stick to the oldskool.....at least it can be trusted nasty sound?....try listening to music with your ears not with your ass im arguing my preference of format, i use both cd and mp3, both are for a convienience, but they still factor very low in rank of my choice of ownership.... you can think what you want, no matter how wrong you are, steve muir - field (pye/bbc engineer) is very real, i dont have to prove fuck all to you, he has taught me a lot in terms of sound and gone to great lengths to explain the workings of vinyl, so much so that when i got the money, im gonna buy this little baby..... linkypooh so once again, shut it, and back to topic please Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slim Posted July 22, 2007 Share Posted July 22, 2007 so why is vinyl still around? cd is barely 30 odd years old and for an alledgedly superior format its already getting the shit kicked out of it, downloads are being found wanting...... Vinyl isn't really still around, 1 million single sales a year is a fraction of total single sales online. All this 'vinyl revival' news is simply because the white stripes released their single on vinyl and it sold a shitload to collecters, nothing to do with quality. While CD's sales are in decline because of online downloads, CD isn't getting the shit kicked out of it. 96% of album sales in the first half of this year were on CD. so just one artist sounds good on analogue?..are you that fucking closed off?.....i got icky thump on vinyl, its an ok cut but there are better analogue recordings, sounds to me like you are just so closed minded and that your path is the right one and you cant understand why people dont agree with you.starry eyed has got nothing to do with any of this, its choice pure and simple No, i'm not closed off at all. The white stripes made a career out of a rough analog sound. They rule, but I'm glad not every artist does this. I've got a shitload of vinyl, it sounds great the first time you play it, then gets gradually shiter. I far prefer digital, itxs flexible, it doesn't degrade, I can back it up and it's portable. I used to have to copy vinyl to cassette, jeez that sounded shite. so much so i just ordered £70 worth of new techno for my wednesday shows.....why?.....because nearly all of the ones ive ordered isnt available on digital download or your cd...so much for the superior, ill stick to the oldskool.....at least it can be trustednasty sound?....try listening to music with your ears not with your ass Heh, and thankfully you're in the misty eyed deluded minority Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Declan Posted July 22, 2007 Author Share Posted July 22, 2007 You two remind me of Hi-Fi buffs in the seventies, who spent hundreds of quid on top end gear, and ensuring their stereo was correctly position, but only own a Stereo Demonstration disk and Dark Side of the Sodding Moon. It's the music that matters not the format or the bitrate or the sound quality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slim Posted July 22, 2007 Share Posted July 22, 2007 You two remind me of Hi-Fi buffs in the seventies, who spent hundreds of quid on top end gear, and ensuring their stereo was correctly position, but only own a Stereo Demonstration disk and Dark Side of the Sodding Moon. It's the music that matters not the format or the bitrate or the sound quality. Oh I agree 100%, which is why I like to have my music with me on my ipod than sat at home on placcy disks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ray marshall Posted July 26, 2007 Share Posted July 26, 2007 so as an ipod wanker you are for the degradation of sound quality, i dont care what you say the word "compression( applies to all codecs, even the "lossless" ones compress so you lose information pure and simple,.....and yes you are closed off slim, ignorant to other people's preferences and truely believe that every technological advance is for the better and still cant understand why not al people disagree with you 1 million sales of vinyl is for the 7" only so far, again, twisting things to suit yourself, while vinyl wont get back to the numbers it used to have, as a format that was supposed to be killed years ago its still here, and seeing its so called successor already getting the shit kicked out of it i agree with declan as far as the music that matters, ofcourse it does, but enjoying music is not done purely by listening only i doubt you will understand anything i said, just as you showed your ignorance on the xbox component rgb cable link which you said you couldnt get, so im not hoping for anything else intelligent from you oh and declan, for the record.......over 3000 vinyl and still counting.....cd's 50 or so......and thats just the way i like it shopping for records is a joy, and that is what makes the difference Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ans Posted July 26, 2007 Share Posted July 26, 2007 i dont care what you say the word "compression( applies to all codecs, even the "lossless" ones compress so you lose information pure and simple I'm not quite sure what you understand by lossless, but it generally means that you don't lose anything. You don't sound the brightest chap so I'll not mock you too mercilessly for this statement though. Imagine the file like a sponge. I can take the sponge and squeeze it in the fist of my hand and it will be much smaller. I have compressed it. If I remove the compression, it springs back to it's original volume. Lossless compression is just what it says it is. Lossless. It might be wiser for you to stay out of the discussion the grown ups are having in here if you don't think you're able to post without calling people 'ipod wankers'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slim Posted July 26, 2007 Share Posted July 26, 2007 so as an ipod wanker you are for the degradation of sound quality, i dont care what you say the word "compression( applies to all codecs, even the "lossless" ones compress so you lose information pure and simple No, you clearly have no understanding of how this works. You dont lose anything in lossless compression. Lossless compression is used all the time, zip files are lossless compression for example, do you think they'd be used if every time you opened the file you lost a little bit of it? A decompressed audio stream from lossless compression is identical to the original. ,.....and yes you are closed off slim, ignorant to other people's preferences and truely believe that every technological advance is for the better and still cant understand why not al people disagree with you No, I'm not at all. I used to avidly collect vinyl. I've got an attick full of the stuff, including some nice stuff like original mike oldfield coloured disks and stuff like that. Vinyl was good in the day, but the fact is it's not great any more, particularly when you've played the record a few times, that degradation of a vinly disk after a few plays really is lossy. An ipod wanker? An ipod isn't perfect, but it means I can listen to my whole collection anywhere, which I can't do with vinly. So comparing a good lame codec mp3 rip of a cd onto my ipod to nothing at all, well the ipod wins hands down I recon. 1 million sales of vinyl is for the 7" only so far, again, twisting things to suit yourself, while vinyl wont get back to the numbers it used to have, as a format that was supposed to be killed years ago its still here, and seeing its so called successor already getting the shit kicked out of it 1 million sales based on a rush on the white stripes single is pitiful. That's not kicking the shit out of anything. i agree with declan as far as the music that matters, ofcourse it does, but enjoying music is not done purely by listening onlyi doubt you will understand anything i said, just as you showed your ignorance on the xbox component rgb cable link which you said you couldnt get, so im not hoping for anything else intelligent from you Er, that's a fucking YCbCr component cable, not RGB. Great job cowboy oh and declan, for the record.......over 3000 vinyl and still counting.....cd's 50 or so......and thats just the way i like itshopping for records is a joy, and that is what makes the difference Nobodys arguing with the asthetics of vinyl. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phildo Posted July 30, 2007 Share Posted July 30, 2007 IMHO... I don't get the "sound quality isn't important" thing. That's all music is. It's just like saying that it's OK if a painting has nothing but brown smudges because, you know, it's the idea that's important. For me, MP3s are simply not a pleasant way of listening to music. They're just about OK for ringtones, but for any serious listening, there are definite problems with the frequencies at the top end of the spectrum - they generally sound "smeared" and "washy". As far as the whole "vinyl is shit/no it's not" argument goes, my own favourite listening format is 12" 45 RPM vinyl - palyed on even a moderately good system, there's a sound to this format that, maybe due to inherent distortion and limitations, is far more "listenable" than any digital format. Having said that, I've got precisely no problem with the sound of CDs - all this "cold", "harsh" rubbish that vinyl purists harp on about. CDs sound good. Simple as. Fair enough, brick-wall frequency limiting at 22K cuts off any frequencies above that, but ther's only a small percentage of us peeps who can hear frequencies that high, anyway. One of the main problems with MP3s lies in the fact that, to achieve smaller file sizes, they use a method called "Perceptual Coding", whereby the frequency content of a piece of music, say, is analyzed over a (large) number of frequency bands and any sound which according to a theoretical model is likely to be masked (hidden) by another nearby sound is simply thrown away. It's actually a pretty solid piece of theory - the same as MD is based on, but it does mean you're getting a technically inferior product. At the end of the day, listen to music however you want, but don't make the mistake of thinking all formats are equal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slim Posted July 30, 2007 Share Posted July 30, 2007 Of course there are tradeoffs if you want to make small file sizes, but it's worth mentioning that not all mp3's are created equal. I'll generally encode to lame preset v0 which is well tested to pretty much indistinguishable in double blind testing to the original, and sounds bloody great. There are some very nasty encoders out there, but if you do your own and take care, you can get great results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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