Another Nail In The Coffin Of Holocaust Denial

[Chinahand]

I've been shocked to be involved in a couple of topics on Manx Forums that raised up Holocaust denial.

 

This article is interesting. It discusses a book which is to be published shortly: Tapping Hitler's Generals: Transcripts Of Secret Conversations 1942-45, edited by Sonke Neitzel with an introduction by Ian Kershaw, is published by Greenhill Books on August 31 at £30.

 

For once a worthwhile Daily Mail article!

 

During the latter half of World War II, the British Secret Intelligence Service (SIS) undertook a massive clandestine operation of which the full, extraordinary details are only now coming to light.

Between 1942 and 1945, a section of SIS - known as MI19 - secretly recorded no fewer than 64,427 conversations between captured German generals and other senior officers, all without their knowledge or even suspicion. The 167 most significant of these are about to be published for the first time.

 

Together, they provide us with a goldmine of information about what the German High Command privately thought of the war, Adolf Hitler, the Nazis and each other.

 

They also explode the post-war claim of the Wehrmacht that they did not know what the SS were doing to the Jews, Slavs, mentally disabled and others among what they termed "untermensch" (sub-humans).

 

 

General Von Thoma, who commanded a panzer division in Russia before being captured at El Alamein, told the pro-Nazi General Ludwig Cruwell in January 1943: "I am actually ashamed to be an officer."

He related how he had spoken to the Army Chief of Staff, General Franz Halder, about the atrocities, only to be told: "That's a political matter, that's nothing to do with me."

 

So he put his protests in writing to Army commanderin-chief General Walther von Brauchitz, who said: "Do you want me to take it further? If you want me to take it further, anything might happen."

 

Thoma said of those who believed the Fuhrer was ignorant of what was happening: "Of course, he knows all about it. Secretly, he's delighted. Of course, people can't make a row - they would simply be arrested and beaten if they did."

 

The kind of things that were happening to Poles, Russians and especially Jews were common currency in the 'private' conversations at Trent Park.

 

In December 1944, Generalleutnant Heinrich Kittel, commander of 462 Volksgrenadier division, told General-major Paul von Felbert, commandant of Feldkommandantur 560: "The things I've experienced! In Latvia, near Dvinsk, there were mass executions of Jews carried out by the SS.

 

"There were about 15 SS men and perhaps 60 Latvians, known to be the most brutal people in the world. I was lying in bed one Sunday morning when I kept hearing two salvos followed by small-arms fire."

 

On investigating, Kittel found "men, women and children - they were counted off and stripped naked. The executioners first laid all the clothes in one pile. Then 20 women had to take up their position - naked - on the edge of the trench. They were shot and fell down into it."

 

"How was it done?" asked Felbert.

 

"They faced the trench," Kittel replied. "And then 20 Latvians came up behind and simply fired once through the back of their heads, and they fell down forwards into the trench like ninepins."

 

Kittel gave an order forbidding such executions from taking place "outside, where people can look on. If you shoot people in the wood or somewhere where no one can see," he told the SS men, "that's your own affair. But I absolutely forbid another day's shooting here. We draw our drinking water from deep springs; we're getting nothing but corpse water there."

 

"What did they do to the children?" asked Felbert. Kittel - who sounded "very excited" at this point, according to the transcriber - answered: "They seized three-year-old children by the hair, held them up and shot them with a pistol and then threw them in. I saw that for myself. One could watch it."

 

Another general, General-leutnant Hans Schaeffer, commander of the 244 Infantry division, asked Kittel: "Did they weep? Have the people any idea what's in store for them?"

 

"They know perfectly well," replied Kittel. "They are apathetic. I'm not sensitive myself, but such things turn my stomach."

[stevie]

I've been shocked to be involved in a couple of topics on Manx Forums that raised up Holocaust denial.

 

so why bring it up again

[Chinahand]

Duh ... because this is primary evidence showing that the Holocaust deniers are wrong!

[magneto]

So says Mao's posterboy

[Chinahand]

Ah ... my atavar ... not really relevent to this debate - but just for the record - Mao ordered the direct murder of thousands (maybe even hundreds of thousands) and purposely introduced policies directly responsible for the deaths of millions - as tyrants go he was a big one.

 

But far fewer people deny his atrocities - sadly for some strange reason people do wish to deny the systematic, planned, deliberate slaughter of millions of people in Europe during world war II - I'll do my tiny bit to show that those people are deliberately ignoring massive amounts of evidence that this tragedy occurred.

[tameelf]

im shocked too 64,427 conversations. 167 most significant being published (heresay)yet going over old ground. some tosser is makin 30 qwid per book.the alleged holacost has became a industry

 

Auschwitz .....death camp or slave labour?? theres many changes to what we have been told over the years.and the fact that historians who paint a diffrent picture are in jail for denial only makes wonder why

on the Auschwitz website the germans kept records of deaths and causes the ages of some off the people when they died tend to make lies off the two lines 1 for death the other for??labour death??

 

the ovens in Auschwitz during the war could never cope with the figures first fed to the world of 5 million reduced over the years to less than one million. the soviets built the ovens after the was to cope with death from desease,

 

GW's great-grandfather, set up the takeover of the Hamburg-America Line, a cover for I.G. Farben's Nazi espionage unit in the United States. In Germany, I.G. Farben was most famous for putting the gas in gas chambers; it was the producer of Zyklon B and other gasses used on victims of the Holocaust. The Bush family was not unaware of the nature of their investment partners. They hired Allen Dulles, the future head of the CIA, to hide the funds they were making from Nazi investments and the funds they were sending to Nazi Germany, rather than divest. It was only in 1942, when the government seized Union Banking Company assets under the Trading With The Enemy Act, that George Walker and Prescott Bush stopped pumping money into Hitler's regime.

 

According to classified documents from Dutch intelligence and US government archives, President George W. Bush's grandfather, Prescott Bush made considerable profits off Auschwitz slave labor. In fact, President Bush himself is an heir to these profits from the holocaust which were placed in a blind trust in 1980 by his father, former president George Herbert Walker Bush. On the 20th of October, the government commenced action against the company under the trading with the enemy act. After the seizures in late 1942 of five U.S. enterprises he managed on behalf of Nazi industrialist Fritz Thyssen failed to divest himself of more than a dozen "enemy national" relationships that continued until as late as 1951, newly-discovered U.S. government documents reveal. In 1952, Prescott Bush was elected to the U.S. Senate, with no press accounts about his well-concealed Nazi past

 

I.G. Farben is /was owned by the carlyle group

 

bad things happened during the 2ww but look at the main players not the deaths. look at what the 5million figure secured for the jews

 

btw after ww1 brit newspapers sorry jewspapers carried the 5 million figure as well.

 

i have wrote before about the soviet holacaust those figures dont change and no historians are jailed yet were frd the same crap in years to come 911 denial will be against the law

 

seems the yanks are the new nazis

[VinnieK]

Chinahand, just look at what you've done! You should know better than to excite tameelf, now the spooks monitoring him are going to have to start slipping sedatives into his water supply again.

[Chinahand]

im shocked too 64,427 conversations. 167 most significant being published (heresay)yet going over old ground. some tosser is makin 30 qwid per book.the alleged holacost has became a industry

 

FFS Tameelf - yes they edited down the taping to find out what was interesting and what do the 167 most significant conversations record:

 

In these transcripts, the officers reflect on how they thought the war was progressing, and the direction of German politics and strategy. The officers discussed the July Plot of 1944, the failed attempt to assassinate Hitler, collaboration with the enemy, and their experience of German war crimes. The editor has written biographies of all of the officers who appear in the transcripts, and has meticulously researched the valildity of their assertions. Tapping Hitler’s Generals also tells the extraordinary background and details of the surveillance operation. Link

 

So no its not only the holocaust that is included in the book - its an academic work of history which does show new information as it is direct recording of German army officers etc discussing the war. These conversations have not been available for academics to study up until now.

 

Auschwitz .....death camp or slave labour?? theres many changes to what we have been told over the years.and the fact that historians who paint a diffrent picture are in jail for denial only makes wonder why

on the Auschwitz website the germans kept records of deaths and causes the ages of some off the people when they died tend to make lies off the two lines 1 for death the other for??labour death??

 

Erm Aushwitz I an administration camp, Aushwitz II a death camp, and 40 or so other camps lumped together as Aushwitz III a slave labour camp.

 

Your second sentence is basically incomprehensible, but I think you are complaining that a web site/simplification about the processing of people at Auschwitz is inaccurate - oh dear.

 

the ovens in Auschwitz during the war could never cope with the figures first fed to the world of 5 million reduced over the years to less than one million.

 

Where do you get the 5 million figure from? Straw figure by any chance?

 

The camp commandant, Rudolf Höss, testifed at the Nuremberg Trials that up to 2.5 million people were gassed at Auschwitz. Was this an exaggeration? Hard to say, but estimates from the records of the number of rail trucks that arrived at the camp and how many people you can pack into them give a figure of between 1.1 and 1.6 million.

 

By the way - between Auswitz II opening in October 1941 and being liberated in January 45 is about 1200 days - to kill 5 million people if you work a 12 hour shift 7 days a week (I think genocidal efficiency could easilly achieve this work rate - what do you reckon?) it means you have to kill 350 people per hour on shift - nasty statistics, but achievable. For 1.6 million its 1000 per day working a 12 hour shift.

the soviets built the ovens after the was to cope with death from desease,

 

Absoluted bull - there are thousands of witness statements, plans, communications etc about the ovens - check out here for statistics on the ovens - oh and the figure given here is that the ovens could burn over 7000 people a day - easily able to cope with the numbers required to burn the 4200 a day to get rid of 5 million people.

 

A letter from the Zentralbauleitung to Group C of June 28, 1943 indicates that the capacity at Auschwitz for a 24-hour period was estimated at 340 bodies for crematorium I, 1,440 each for crematoria II and III, and 768 each for crematoria IV and V. Thus the five crematoria could incinerate 4,765 bodies each day.

 

The furnace room occupied the largest interior space on the ground floor of the crematorium. It housed five furnaces, each with three retorts (about 2m long, 80 cm wide, and 1m high) that were used to push the bodies into the furnace. There were two generators of coke gas on the opposite side. The fumes were funneled to a single chimney through flues under the floor.

 

And just to ask you - what if only say 1/2 a million people were murdered in Auschwitz - are you saying this makes it OK?

 

In many ways I find it totally irrelevent arguing whether the ovens could burn 100, or 1000 or 5000 corpses a day. Are you really denying that the real number of people deliberately systematically murdered and disposed of is less than any of these numbers? Are you saying its ok to deliberately plan and carry out these acts?

 

Also are you claiming that because people for their own end may have exagerated the figure and claimed that the number murdered was say 10 times larger - back to your 5 million figure - this in some way diminishes the mass crime that was perpetrated at Auschwitz.

 

Oh and Auschwitz was only one exterminatin camp. Don't forget about the other ones: Bełżec, Chełmno, Majdanek, Sobibór, and Treblinka. How many people do you think died at these camps?

 

bad things happened during the 2ww but look at the main players not the deaths. look at what the 5million figure secured for the jews

 

btw after ww1 brit newspapers sorry jewspapers carried the 5 million figure as well.

 

You really are a twisted individual.

 

I'm fascinated by your obsession with GW Bush and how his family made its money - and wonder if your knowledge of these events is as accurate as your knowledge of Auschwitz.

 

Anyway no matter what, your claim that the "yanks are the new nazis" shows how little you understand.

 

Oh and linking Carlyle to I.G. Farben is really good - lets trying playing this game - by this logic the Nanjing Automotive Company are responsible for the design of the mini, BMW for the Rolls Royce and the ex President of Thailand is responsible for Man City's FA cup win in 1969. Christ these consipiracies are complicated.

[tameelf]

now i seen this link china about 4 hours before you draged this subject up.which is probibly the reason you posted and i was hopeing you spoke of Treblinka

 

ever watch timeteam ? with the ground sonar.

 

 

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=pCwpjsS-6H4

 

pointless me comenting theres enough on this link

 

and yes hitler and his rise was funded by the bush famliy and jewish bankers.

[mojomonkey]

Do you two regularly post in the international thread on The Guardian's talk site? If not maybe you should, I reckon you'll find it right up your street.

[Kurashima]

Im surprised that Tameelf seems to focus on Auschwitz as though it was the only Nazi death camp during the Holocaust.

 

Maybe it makes it easier to disprove his figures on the bodycount.

[Chinahand]

now i seen this link china about 4 hours before you draged this subject up.which is probibly the reason you posted and i was hopeing you spoke of Treblinka

 

ever watch timeteam ? with the ground sonar.

 

 

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=pCwpjsS-6H4

 

pointless me comenting theres enough on this link

 

and yes hitler and his rise was funded by the bush famliy and jewish bankers.

 

As ever with tameelf the issues of evidence, repeatability, academic openness come up.

 

Your video shows the work of Richard Krege - he undertook his "research" in 1999 - he has yet to publish it in any peer reviewed journal. He hasn't shared his data, or allowed a 3rd party to verify it - but he makes Youtube videos and goes to Tehran to take part in Holocaust denial conferences.

 

Now Mr Elf - what sources do you think provide reliable information on Treblinka? How about the German officer who commandant of the camp from September 1942 to the end of the war: Franz Stangl.

 

Stangl was eventually captured, put on trial and found guilty of the murder of 900,000 people. He was perfectly willing to openly discuss his crimes arguing that:"My conscience is clear. I was simply doing my duty .."

 

He fully cooperated with an author called Grita Sereny (who also wrote a masterful biogoraphy of Albert Speer, Hitler's architect and war minister). The book that resulted is called Into that Darkness and is one of the most detailed "popularizations" of the history of the holcaust.

 

Sereny asked him, if you were going to kill these Jews anyway, what was the purpose of humiliating them? And he responded, well, we humiliated them in order to be able to kill them. In other words, if you dehumanize someone, it's much easier to torture them, it's much easier to regard them as something less than you are. And not your equal. And a member of this out group.

 

Sereny also asked him: "There were so many children, did they ever make you think of your children, of how you would feel in the position of those parents?"

 

Stangl replied: "No, I can't say I ever thought that way. You see, I rarely saw them as individuals. It was always a huge mass. I sometimes stood on the wall and saw them in the tube . But - how can I explain it - they were naked, packed together, running, being driven with whips.

 

"Could you not have changed that?" Sereny asked. "In your position, could you not have stopped the nakedness, the whips, the horror of the cattle pens?"

 

"No, no, no. This was the system. Wirth had invented it. It worked and because it worked, it was irreversible."

 

During his time at Treblinka, Stangl conceded that he grew accustomed to the killings, even eventually regarding the Jewish prisoners as “baggage”. He is quoted as saying, “I remember Wirth standing there, next to the pits full of black-blue corpses.... Wirth said ‘what shall we do with rotting garbage?’ I think unconsciously that started me thinking of them as cargo.”

 

There are multiple witness statements, primary documents discussing the shipment of people to Treblinka etc etc etc. And the testimonies of those who carried out the killings - but Mr Elf prefers to believe in Youtube videos - good for him.

[tameelf]

im not focusing on auchwich.it tends to be THE memorial. to what the people that own the newspapers and publishers tell us.

i am not a twisted individual china.far from it i tend to read both sides to a argument.i like to study time and motion .timelines.and the many links that come from that to arrive at my conclusion. if it wont compute it probibly dozent.being that germany had a eradacation plan and in some departments were the best in the world. strange how they "worked" the death camps

here is a few vids that go a little bit in to methods. maths. and timelines

 

A holocaust denial movie, in 30 episodes, on the subject of Treblinka, Sobibor, and Belzec. Banned at Youtube.

sorry not austwich

 

http://www.onethirdoftheholocaust.com/

 

the soviets are spoken of a lot in these vids.the kremlin has just made avalibal ww2 death camp documents for some reason zionist jews dont want them made public

 

imagine my shock

[Kurashima]

For some reason, the second I see someone use the phrase "Zionist" within an argument I tend to think theyve lost sight of their point and wandered into conspiracy land again. The majority of people denying the holocaust seem to be on the borderline of using the phrase "International Zionist Conspiracy" which lets be honest, is just a way of saying that a certain religion has influence over people in power.

 

The same can be said, unfortunately, for every single religion in the world, yet rarely do you hear the phrase "International Christian Conspiracy" "International Islamic Conspiracy" "International Buddhist Conspiracy". Religion is, and always has been, a very useful tool for converting masses of people to your way of thinking. The Zionistas (sic) are probably no better at it than most other religions.

[VinnieK]

im not focusing on auchwich....

 

(one paragraph of watching captain mental stumble wildly through the english language like a drunk asylum inmate later)

 

... A holocaust denial movie, in 30 episodes, on the subject of Treblinka, Sobibor, and Belzec. Banned at Youtube.

sorry not austwich

 

Not being able to spell Auschwitz I can just about understand ("just about" since you surely would have come across the correct spelling at some point during your no doubt intense research into the subject), but managing to mispell it in two different ways in the same post beggars belief!

 

Yes it's a petty thing to raise here in an argument regarding the Holocaust, but I am a petty man and I nevertheless assert that it is perhaps more relevant a point than it would be in any other case (i.e. any argument that doesn't involve you). That this should be so has already been demonstrated by the discussion so far: Chinahand tries to reason with you, presenting evidence for his claims and explaining why your own evidence isn't as (or indeed at all) convincing, but this tactic fails because you are, to put it in the simplest terms possible, a lunatic. When confronted with a reasoned argument you wig out and hurl a random collection of demented conjectures and questionable/already debunked evidence. When these are challenged you simply hurl a another fistful of dodgy hypothesis and wild claims that, although different to the last in composition, are equally stupid, and present that as your argument instead (when in actual fact you have no argument, you merely have prejudice and a severe case of paranoia that you are desperate to justify). Thus reason fails in the face of lunacy - for the latter is blind to, and indeed hates, anything that does not sustain it.

 

As such, all that anyone who cares about historical truth can do in this situation is to show that you're mental, to hold you up as a kind of cautionary example of dishonest reasoning, demented logic, and delusional faith in the most questionable of sources, if you will.

 

You claim to research these matters in depth, yet judging by your writing you can barely even read at a year 8 level, and your entire motivation is some twisted and delusional belief that the only real truth is hidden - the more hidden a fact the more it is true (which hence predisposes you to latch onto the most obscure and downright fraudulent souces). I don't know which is worse: Your bizarre beliefs and repellant prejudices, or the time and effort you obviously dedicate to justifying them to yourself (and indeed that the justification is still so weak!). In either case you really need help, and it should be said that the internet is not a good place for you to be.