Trams And Trains

[ccm]

Apols for this as it's something I've not heard reported about but people tell me the future of the MER trams is in doubt. As anyone else who has used them will know they are bloody expensive to ride on!!! On the one occasion I did travel to Laxey and back using the tram it cost my firend and I around £11 and there was no-one else on it. Can I suggest to those responsible for the trams/trains if they are considering shutting the services down because no-one uses them then how about a period where it cost just a couple of quid to ride. I would certainly use it a lot more and I'm sure others would to. Just look at what the budget airlines have done and how they fill their planes.

[Albert Tatlock]

I thought they'd just allocated well over a £million for repairs upgrades to the MER? - due to happen when the railway is closed for the winter. Surely you don't throw that much money on something you're thinking of shutting?

 

I can't see them shutting the MER - there'd be an uproar.

[Lonan3]

This is more likely the row about the tourism minister wanting to get rid of some the unused rolling stock rather than simply preserving it in case it ever needs to be used.

[thebees]

They have sold a garage or somesuch and theres nowhere to store some old carriages so they are being given to the governments favourite shitehawkes as garden furniture....something like that anyway give or take a truth or 2...

[Pragmatopian]

Does anyone know where I can find accounts for the steam railway, horse tram and electric railway? I suspect that the majority of operating costs are not dependant on passenger numbers (assuming additional services are not laid on), and that those costs exceed the revenues from ticket sales.

 

As we basically have to subsidize these forms of transport for their historical and tourist value, I would propose annual season tickets for residents at a nominal cost. For example, it would be nice to see the horse trams packed with people travelling between the apartments at the north end of the prom down to the south end where most of them probably work and shop.

[Theodolite]

On the one occasion I did travel to Laxey and back using the tram it cost my firend and I around £11 and there was no-one else on it.

 

During TT a few of us bought rover tickets for the day - Bus, Train, Horse-tram, Electric Railway for £12.

 

An excellent day out from Douglas to Snaefell and down to Port Erin and then back to Douglas. (Only missed going to Ramsey). It was an excellent day out and one I would recommend to anyone.

[Skig]

They have sold a garage or somesuch and theres nowhere to store some old carriages so they are being given to the governments favourite shitehawkes as garden furniture....something like that anyway give or take a truth or 2...

 

There seems to be a lot of talk over the last week or so, a lot of which is at cross purposes.

The garage in Salisbury street does not belong to the Government, it is in private ownership and the lease runs out (I think) next year. A lot of the MER stuff that is stored in there is passed redemption, mere rotting skeletons of trams that have long since passed beyond restoration. If the current rolling stock was very small, I could understand the concern, but there is plenty of surplus already, so why look to try and restore the wrecks?

From what I have heard and read, Adrian Earnshaw is only talking about this old rubbish, not the present stock.

[Politician]

As we basically have to subsidize these forms of transport for their historical and tourist value, I would propose annual season tickets for residents at a nominal cost.

These exist already. It's £35 for a season ticket to cover the steam, electric and mountain railways, and £17.50 for the horse tram. The latter ticket is available to Douglas residents only, as the horse tram is operated by the Corporation and not the Government.

[Moghrey Mie]

Does anyone know where I can find accounts for the steam railway, horse tram and electric railway? I suspect that the majority of operating costs are not dependant on passenger numbers (assuming additional services are not laid on), and that those costs exceed the revenues from ticket sales.

 

As we basically have to subsidize these forms of transport for their historical and tourist value, I would propose annual season tickets for residents at a nominal cost. For example, it would be nice to see the horse trams packed with people travelling between the apartments at the north end of the prom down to the south end where most of them probably work and shop.

 

 

Budget estimates 2003-4 pink book

 

MER gross expenditure £1,941,200 income £347,000

 

Steam Railway gross expenditure £1,452,000 income £229,000

 

Buses gross expenditure £8,365,000 income £1,938,000

 

Central Administration Public Transport Division £598,000

 

I've only got O Level Maths but even I can see this doesn't add up to a successful enterprise.

Maybe they need an accountant.

[Major Chip Hazzard]

The deal with the MER trams is there are nine old, out of use, but historically important trams stored in old Homefield Road bus depot. They were moved there a few years ago, while Laxey tram shed is rebuilt as there is not enough room to store them on the system. The money is now in place to rebuild the shed, however, the lease for old Homefield Road bus depot is due to expire in 2009. MER society is worried that these important part of Manx railway history are destroyed. Really they should be in a transport museum with the old steam railway carriages and buses also stored in the old Homefield Road bus depot. Now, according to the MER society were told by the new Tourism minster that just we have room in the new shed, doesn't mean we should fill it up. Also according to the press release, he also asked them if they wanted to purchase the trams. The question is who decides if these trams are historically important trams or rotting skeletons of trams that have long since passed beyond restoration? When they have gone, they have been lost in time. However, if restored them we need people, or more importantly tourists and railway enthusiasts to ride on them or view them in museum. What is the cost of Manx heritage? A couple of these stored trams MER No. 23 & No.26 are unique and should be saved, but as for the others, well who decides?

 

Read the MERS press release here: http://www.mers.org.im/merspressreleasejul162007.htm

 

As for the Budget estimates 2003-4 pink book quoted above, you have to remember the Manx railways under government control are undergoing a major upgrade to drag them from the 19th century to the 21st century. This is driven by health & safety and insurance requirements. Of course, there is going to be a large expenditure involved over several years to get the railways up to the required standard. the Manx railways and tramways are as historically important as the TT and worth preserving. However, to keep them running, they have to operate to health & safety and insurance requirements. This will cost money until all requirements have been completed, hence the different.

 

To get more bums on railway seats, we have to go out and actively promote the Island's railways with as much enthusiasm as the TT. People will come to see the railways, stay in hotels, eat in restaurants, but we need to shout about it. There is a lot of competition for railway enthusiast's money and at the moment North Wales seems to be taking the largest slice of the pie. The Ffestinog Railway and Welsh Highland Railway has our traffic; we need to get it back by actively promoting the island and it's railways. Why do we only spend money on the TT, what about the other attractions on the island?

 

edited for daft typos !!

[Fred]

Current estimates

 

Pink Book Estimates 2007/2008

 

Gross Income Net

 

Buses £9,036,000 £ 2,232,000 £ 6,804,000

 

Heritage railways £4,403,600 £732,800 £ 3,671,000

[Lost Login]

I would argue that North Wales does not take the largest slice of Enthusiasts money. By far more goes to the preserverd standard gauge lines with the largest three of four each having inexcess of quarter of a million passengers per annum. The Welsh narrow gauge though does take a slice but most of those travelling will be holiday makers, the FFestiniog especially is good at attracting coach traffic and the grey headed brigade

 

There is obviously a difference between a railway operated by full time staff and the volunteer led lines in the UK although they do employ staff. This is shown in the costs to operate trains in the IoM which is not cheap as they are all paid staff. They always were and still are I think on fixed five day working weeks unlike the bus drivers now who have flexible hours. Consequently there is a fair bit of overtime paid relating to the preparation in the moning and weekend working which all push the costs up. This I think has resulted in the limited service that we now see, a train in each direction every two hours, which does not make it an attractive option to use if you have kids etc as two hours to wait to the next train is a long time if you want to stop off and do something. In the UK peak season will see trains at anything from a 30 mins to an hourly service making it much more user friendly.

 

I am not advocating hoards of volunteers running the line, although it would reduce costs, but the railway has to provide a service that will attract locals, tourists and enthusiasts. Is there really the same demand for the trains in Mid April as there is during the Summer holidays yet the Steam Railway still operates the same level of service. It should also be prepared to "fleece" in the nicest possible way travellers. UK lines all appear to have linked shops and cafes collecting in the cash. In the IoM there is no shop and the cafes are leased out which means they are not always open when the trains run. e.g Greens on a Sunday.

 

The UK has a huge market for "Driver Experience" days when you can drive a Steam train and very few will come in at under £250 for a half day, one return trip or £500 for a whole day, two round trips. Many are a lot more and they are sold out! The Ffestioniog starts at £550 for a day but you must share the footplate so they are raking in £1,100 ago! The IoM would only have to run six of these a month and it would double its turnover over a year.

 

There is money to be made from the railways but somebody has to want to make it and it would probably require achange in working practices etc on the Railway. Both require time and effort but is anybody preapred to do iso?

 

 

To get more bums on railway seats, we have to go out and actively promote the Island's railways with as much enthusiasm as the TT. People will come to see the railways, stay in hotels, eat in restaurants, but we need to shout about it. There is a lot of competition for railway enthusiast's money and at the moment North Wales seems to be taking the largest slice of the pie. The Ffestinog Railway and Welsh Highland Railway has our traffic; we need to get it back by actively promoting the island and it's railways. Why do we only spend money on the TT, what about the other attractions on the island?

 

edited for daft typos !!

[Albert Tatlock]

I haven't been on the Steam Railway for years.

 

The main difference between the Isle of Man Trams and Trains (v UK Trams and Trains) is that the people running things here are likely to be lazy because they generally can take funding for granted. What we are really talking about here, I think, is gaining Value For Money from the civil servants charged with running things. To me it's clear that someone with a little more commercial savvy should become involved.

 

For me (or more importantly others) to be interested - and if my kids were still young I'd imagine I'd be looking for things like:

• Make it more exciting for kids (it doeesn't take much to dress up the front of the trains sometimes).
  
• Have a regular annual 'Fred Dibnah' style 'Steam Rally' or similar associated with the Steam Railway - though tricky because it requires carting some tonnage from the UK.
  
• Model railway conventions
  
• Rail art exhibitions
  
• Tie trips in with 'Big Barbeque fun days' and sports days etc.
  
• Sort out a 'tram and train' museum - including lots of other old technologies such as the history of the Douglas Head railway, or even buses etc. etc.
  
• Sort out a restaurant/bar
  
• Beer/Music festivals
  

I think the idea of driver experience days is good as it seems to work on other railways.

 

[Albert Tatlock]

It would be interesting to work out the cost of replacing the trams and trains and consigning them to a museum, and replacing much of it with a modern 'metrolink style' tram system.

 

Since little or no tunnelling would have to be done, I would assume this could be done at £5 to £10 million per mile (see clicky).

 

A lot of money you might think - but remember it costs over £80m to run things now over 10 years - and less than 10 miles of track could connect much of the population around Douglas. This would also reduce the needs for Douglas buses to a great extent - which also cost a similar annual amount. So that's near enough, say, £120 - £160 million we already spend every 10 years. Combined with a Douglas congestion charge aimed at keeping vehicles out of Douglas, as well as taking into account emissions etc. it might actually make economic sense to cost/consider - but I think it would only be successful in conjunction with discouraging vehicle use.

 

A 20 year plan could see the system extended to Ramsey, Peel and the South.

[Cambon]

... Or just write off the £3m income from the public transport system, and make all the buses, trams and trains free. That will get "bums on seats" and out of cars for a lot less money than some of the proposed congestion schemes.

 

A cheap, quick answer if you ask me.