Conducting Business In Manx

[mojomonkey]

At least Polish is an actual living language. I fully support people learning Manx Gaelic as a cultural heritage thing but its not a living language.

 

(Stands back and waits for "boat in the morning" type abuse)

[Gladys]

I agree Mojo, hence my comment re Welsh. Fine, keep it alive as a heritage and hobby thing, but don't pretend it is a living language and is anyone's mother tongue. The last native speaker (Callister of Cregneish?) died in the 70's; he must have had a very lonely life.

 

I don't mind signs being in the two languages, as they remind us of the original Manx name (although I do have a slight problem with Manxified road names in new estates, all such roads should really be called 'the road built on north end of Juan Faragher's southernmost field' etc.), but transacting business in Manx is a nonsense as most words would have to be imported. Did the fisherfolk of Peel have a Manx gaelic word for arbitrage or even fax?

 

Edited for crap typing.

[Gladys]

If a fraudulent transaction went through because some cheque processer in Jersey failed to notice the written amount failed to match the digits what would he do then? Probably moan.

Read post # 2; the major clearing banks just do not visually (by human) check cheques. There may be a check by the cashier that the words and figures tally when the cheque is paid in, but that is probably the last time any human looks at your cheque.

[VinnieK]

Apparently Brian Stowell is the Department of Education Manx Language Officer, and Spokesman for the Manx Gaelic Society - leading me to wonder whether his decision to write a cheque in Manx, and then complain to Manx Radio when the recipient told him to sod off was his way of trying to remind the Island that he and these positions exist.

 

My own view is that teaching Manx in schools is fine provided it's optional, but trying to revive it as a modern, living language that's in common use is a waste of time.

 

The best solution would be the following compromise: Most of Manx Gaelic looks like a random assortment of y, ch, agh, and ny so, instead of actually spending time and effort learning the language, whenever we need to feel a little special or whenever a foreigner is around we can just make it up on the spot.

 

After all Chyyrghny toaynyn y chaghaghaghyyny dy Mannin ny "chris waddle" tooach, as we say in Tromode.

[Gladys]

To be fair, Brian Stowell's (hosted by Bob Harrison) programme on Sunday morning is usually very interesting, very quirky and he does seem to do a lot of research and is knee-deep in the Manx Gaelic/heritage thing, or rather Celtic culture as a whole; the programme will look at any Celtic branch be it Cornish, Breton, Manx, Irish or Scot.

 

He is also an educationalist (sounds like something from the Profanisaurus), having some kind of physics degree, worked at it then gone into lecturing at degree level, from what I can gather. So his credentials aren't in doubt, and he isn't an ardent, language revivalist drum-basher. I just get the feeling he loves Celtic culture and wants to share it with others; after all, that is the theme of the programme. But he is also a pragmatist.

 

I would recommend anyone who wonders about the Manx language to listen to just one Sunday programme, it is interesting, not alienating, quite comical and unthreateningly intelligent - just nice, easy listening on a Sunday morning, talking about topics that are of direct interest to anyone who lives here or has any connection.

[VinnieK]

He is also an educationalist (sounds like something from the Profanisaurus), having some kind of physics degree, worked at it then gone into lecturing at degree level, from what I can gather. So his credentials aren't in doubt, and he isn't an ardent, language revivalist drum-basher.

 

He was clearly trying to prove some kind of point though, given that it was pretty much a foregone conclusion that if he sent out enough cheques written in Manx one would eventually be returned to him. Even if it turns out he's always written all his cheques in Manx and this happened to be the first time someone refused one he's still being awkward since he speaks english and knows full well that manx speakers are in such a minority that it is very unlikely that the people receiving those cheques happened to be able to read them.

 

The point being made, that banks, companies and corporations should know the law regarding cheques and correspondence in Manx, really only serves to highlight how ridiculous this particular law is since, due to its status as a dead language, anyone who writes in Manx to them does so out of choice, not necessity. Indeed, such a law opens the door to claims that businesses should accept any form of official correspondence written in Manx.

 

He may not be a revivalist drum-basher, or he may just be more subtle than most but I still think it's more a bit of gentle courting for publicity on the part of Brian Stowell and the Manx Gaelic Society.

[Albert Tatlock]

I thought all business was already conducted in Manx - "I'll do it tomorrow yessir" and "yes I promise, I will turn up to sort your (insert plumbing, Electrical, building etc. problem here) next Thursday".

[Freggyragh]

I am surprised at some of the casual vitriol on this thread. Brian has been fighting for Manx Gaelic for a very long time. As headboy at Douglas Highschool in the mid-fifties he was ordered not to use any Manx in a speech to the governor - and so went ahead and gave the whole speech in Manx. Brian retired from the position of Manx Language Officer a number of years ago, so is not trying to attract attention to his job - he is just pointing out that he should be allowed to use his own language in his own country - just as the people of Wales, Scotland and Ireland are.

 

I know monoglots struggle with this, but languages adapt to new concepts like 'facsimile', 'macaroni', 'tsunami' 'feng-shui' etc, by just adopting the word, adapting the way it is written to the new language, and trying to pronounce it as close as possible to the original. Sometimes words like don't fit well, so they are slightly adapted, shortened or given a nickname, but of course, the majority of words lend themselves to translation.'Arbitrage' is international financial jargon that the average English speaker wouldn't understand but would be no problem to a financier in any language -who, just like you would use the French.

[withchofthesouth]

Slightly on topic, the pre School at Willaston teaches children Manx which i think is fantastic.

 

what a great idea, all kids should have the opportunity to learn the language of our island.

[TerryMcCann]

Slightly on topic, the pre School at Willaston teaches children Manx which i think is fantastic.

 

what a great idea, all kids should have the opportunity to learn the language of our island.

 

Christ. Half of the kids today can barely speak English.

 

Wouldn't it be better to learn 'em to talk English proper like what I does

[VinnieK]

I am surprised at some of the casual vitriol on this thread.

 

It's not really vitriol though, more a kind of skepticism regarding the news story and the idea that Manx should be officially preserved as anything other than a cultural relic.

 

Brian has been fighting for Manx Gaelic for a very long time. As headboy at Douglas Highschool in the mid-fifties he was ordered not to use any Manx in a speech to the governor - and so went ahead and gave the whole speech in Manx. Brian retired from the position of Manx Language Officer a number of years ago, so is not trying to attract attention to his job - he is just pointing out that he should be allowed to use his own language in his own country - just as the people of Wales, Scotland and Ireland are.

 

And I fully support his right to be allowed to use the Manx language, but I do not support the idea that businesses should be coerced through law into making special provision for dealing with a language that people speak through choice rather than necessity. Those who've chosen to learn Manx are free to use it in conversation, personal correspondence and other forms of mutual interaction, but they shouldn't then expect the rest of the population, including business, to make allowances and provisions for them simply because this was the language of our ancestors (who, after all, are the ones who allowed the language die out in the first place), especially when their first language is more than usually English.

 

I know that Brian Stowell has done a lot for the Manx language and for those who want to learn it, but other wheezes such as writing to the utilities in Manx and the delivery of the speech you mention crosses, in my opinion, the fine line that exists between making a legitimate point and pettiness. That Brian was told not to use Manx in his speech was, I suspect, less a matter of state endorsed oppression and more one of practical necessity: not only would the Governor fail to understand the speech, but so too would most of those listening (including those of Manx descent). This would be ludicrous outcome given that the whole purpose of a speech is to communicate, and is indeed the outcome he achieved by the act of deciding to give the speech entirely in Manx (a decision that in some people's view could be seen as straying dangerously close to the territory of petulance).

 

I know monoglots struggle with this,

 

A minor point, but resitance to the idea of learning Manx does not imply a lack of familiarity with other languages.

 

languages adapt to new concepts like 'facsimile', 'macaroni', 'tsunami' 'feng-shui' etc, by just adopting the word, adapting the way it is written to the new language, and trying to pronounce it as close as possible to the original. Sometimes words like don't fit well, so they are slightly adapted, shortened or given a nickname, but of course, the majority of words lend themselves to translation.'Arbitrage' is international financial jargon that the average English speaker wouldn't understand but would be no problem to a financier in any language -who, just like you would use the French.

 

I don't quite understand how the above quote is supposed, if at all, to relate to the matter of whether or not the use of Manx should be more prevalent on the Isle of Man, but you've neglected another fundamental aspect the natural course of language over time: some languages and dialects die out.

 

Despite how much is made of the role of British immigrants and governorship in the decline of Manx, at some point in history Manx parents made the conscious decision not to teach their children their mother tongue. Practicality dictated the dominance of the English language, and the advantages in being a fluent speaker of English have if anything grown over time whilst incentives to study Manx have decreased to such a point where the best reason that can be given for learning it is a matter of heritage, placing it below other potential second languages such as German or Chinese in terms of usefulness. Everybody has the opportunity to learn Manx if they so wish, and I don't for an instant wish to criticise or demean their decision to do, but those who wish to elevate Manx to some kind of equivalent status as English and "fight" for the language in such a way that comes close to browbeating and berating others for not accomodating the language need to look and the cold, hard realities at play, just as our ancestors so astutely did.

[Albert Tatlock]

I am surprised at some of the casual vitriol on this thread.

 

It's not really vitriol though, more a kind of skepticism regarding the news story and the idea that Manx should be officially preserved as anything other than a cultural relic.

 

Brian has been fighting for Manx Gaelic for a very long time. As headboy at Douglas Highschool in the mid-fifties he was ordered not to use any Manx in a speech to the governor - and so went ahead and gave the whole speech in Manx. Brian retired from the position of Manx Language Officer a number of years ago, so is not trying to attract attention to his job - he is just pointing out that he should be allowed to use his own language in his own country - just as the people of Wales, Scotland and Ireland are.

 

And I fully support his right to be allowed to use the Manx language, but I do not support the idea that businesses should be coerced through law into making special provision for dealing with a language that people speak through choice rather than necessity. Those who've chosen to learn Manx are free to use it in conversation, personal correspondence and other forms of mutual interaction, but they shouldn't then expect the rest of the population, including business, to make allowances and provisions for them simply because this was the language of our ancestors (who, after all, are the ones who allowed the language die out in the first place), especially when their first language is more than usually English.

 

I know that Brian Stowell has done a lot for the Manx language and for those who want to learn it, but other wheezes such as writing to the utilities in Manx and the delivery of the speech you mention crosses, in my opinion, the fine line that exists between making a legitimate point and pettiness. That Brian was told not to use Manx in his speech was, I suspect, less a matter of state endorsed oppression and more one of practical necessity: not only would the Governor fail to understand the speech, but so too would most of those listening (including those of Manx descent). This would be ludicrous outcome given that the whole purpose of a speech is to communicate, and is indeed the outcome he achieved by the act of deciding to give the speech entirely in Manx (a decision that in some people's view could be seen as straying dangerously close to the territory of petulance).

 

I know monoglots struggle with this,

 

A minor point, but resitance to the idea of learning Manx does not imply a lack of familiarity with other languages.

 

languages adapt to new concepts like 'facsimile', 'macaroni', 'tsunami' 'feng-shui' etc, by just adopting the word, adapting the way it is written to the new language, and trying to pronounce it as close as possible to the original. Sometimes words like don't fit well, so they are slightly adapted, shortened or given a nickname, but of course, the majority of words lend themselves to translation.'Arbitrage' is international financial jargon that the average English speaker wouldn't understand but would be no problem to a financier in any language -who, just like you would use the French.

 

I don't quite understand how the above quote is supposed, if at all, to relate to the matter of whether or not the use of Manx should be more prevalent on the Isle of Man, but you've neglected another fundamental aspect the natural course of language over time: some languages and dialects die out.

 

Despite how much is made of the role of British immigrants and governorship in the decline of Manx, at some point in history Manx parents made the conscious decision not to teach their children their mother tongue. Practicality dictated the dominance of the English language, and the advantages in being a fluent speaker of English have if anything grown over time whilst incentives to study Manx have decreased to such a point where the best reason that can be given for learning it is a matter of heritage, placing it below other potential second languages such as German or Chinese in terms of usefulness. Everybody has the opportunity to learn Manx if they so wish, and I don't for an instant wish to criticise or demean their decision to do, but those who wish to elevate Manx to some kind of equivalent status as English and "fight" for the language in such a way that comes close to browbeating and berating others for not accomodating the language need to look and the cold, hard realities at play, just as our ancestors so astutely did.

Well said.

[Freggyragh]

Lets get one thing clear here, cheque writing in Manx was covered by legislation in 1998. It was established at the time that this was no problem at all to the cheque clearing process. When writing cheques to Manx speakers I always use Manx - no problem. I always write the date in figures to save anyone at the bank having to refer to the notes supplied to them.

 

Has there been a case of someone forcing someone else to speak Manx or do business in Manx? Or was that recipient of the cheque unable to read numbers?

 

"A minor point, but resitance to the idea of learning Manx does not imply a lack of familiarity with other languages"

 

I completely agree - I was answering a post that gives the impression of such a lack..

 

I also agree that Manx people themselves let their language decline and almost die. British immigrants were certainly not to blame either. During the period of the decline mainstream educationalists all around the world believed in cultural uniformity. It was not until the late twentieth century that the educational benefits of bi-lingualism began to be understood and accepted. The ethnic composition of people speaking or learning Manx at the moment is, I would say, typical of the broader population in Mannin.

 

Yes, VinnieK, languages and dialects die. One day the Geordie dialect and accent may be indistinguishable from the speech of Los Angeles, but I doubt it. What you forget is that languages spring back to life.

 

Hebrew is the most dramatic, dead as a do-do for over a thousand years - now spoken by 15 million people. Although Hebrew is the most dramatic Belarusian, Taiwanese, NyNorsk, Maori, Comanche and Welsh have all come back from the brink.

 

Faroese was officially banned in schools and churches between 1536 and 1937, but is now the language of the Faroe Islands (Population 48,000). The world is not as bleak and bland as you may think.

 

Manx is no threat to English, quite the contrary, it is complementary. Have a bit of tolerence, let us write our cheques.

[zippy]

I think the smattering of Manx that I have enhances my insight into Manx culture and history, I feel more connected because of it.

 

The process of learning Manx is, for me, a slow one.

It is a good exercise in mental agility that helps keep my brain, which I generally underuse, a bit sharper, focused and disciplined.

 

My son is at the Bunscooil (sp) and I cannot express how wonderful it sounds to hear him speak Manx, when he chooses, he is articulate in both Gaelic and English and flips easily between the two. He has a much greater awareness of other languages than I had at his age.

 

The language is one of the few things that makes the Island different.

[VinnieK]

The issue with cheques, however, is part of a wider question of whether or not Manx should be revived and companies compelled to accomodate those who decide to conduct their businesses with them in Manx. That it should is what I'm arguing against, and indeed the title of this thread is "Conducting Business in Manx", after all.

 

I also agree that Manx people themselves let their language decline and almost die. British immigrants were certainly not to blame either. During the period of the decline mainstream educationalists all around the world believed in cultural uniformity.

 

This, however, neglects the role of Manx parents. Educationalists may have believed in cultural uniformity (although this seems at odds with the nationalism of the era), but ultimately the responsibility for allowing the language to die rests with the parents themselves, not some cloistered educationalists and the prevalent theories of the time.

 

It was not until the late twentieth century that the educational benefits of bi-lingualism began to be understood and accepted. The ethnic composition of people speaking or learning Manx at the moment is, I would say, typical of the broader population in Mannin.

 

You distort the historical record somewhat. The primary motivation for children being taught second languages was the increasing integration of nations under the EU, which is precisely why students began to be taught the languages of the dominant players in the European Union (i.e. French and German), rather than Manx, Scots Gaelic, or any other marginal language. The benefits that you mention were and are seen as practical, rather than cultural and still stand today, i.e. it's probably better for a Manx child to have German as a second language than Manx.

 

Hebrew is the most dramatic, dead as a do-do for over a thousand years - now spoken by 15 million people.

 

The comparison is deeply flawed. The resurgence in Hebrew is a result of millions of people who until the formation of Israel had been scattered around the world, and who spoke a variety of different languages, suddenly finding themselves a nation. The decision to revive Hewbrew was a natural and perhaps even necessary way to provide a sense of cultural and historical unity, as well as providing a solution to the question of language that all could agree on.

 

As for the Welsh, well the whole point of this thread seems to be whether or not we should go down the welsh route.

 

But this misses the point I was making. Revitalising Manx as a practical language (rather than as a cultural relic) is not a natural evolution of the language, it's an arbitrary decision made by those who believe that it's worthwhile. I disagree with their view, which appears to be entirely motivated by nationalistic tendencies than practical considerations: I believe that the Manx can be just as proud of their history without having to dig their language out of its grave, and that establishing Manx as a widely spoken second language will serve little purpose to the inhabitants of the Island.

 

The world is not as bleak and bland as you may think.

 

I don't think the world is bleak and bland at all.

 

Manx is no threat to English, quite the contrary, it is complementary. Have a bit of tolerence, let us write our cheques.

 

I've never believed it was a threat. As I've mentioned before, English is the dominant language of business, science and a considerable amount of culture, this together with our proximity and relation to the UK ensures that the dominance of English is assured for the foreseeable future. My point is that there's no clearly defined benefits to establishing Manx as a living language and as a method of communication. Even as a second or third language, I'm not convinced that Manx is the best available option: learning it doesn't enable us to communicate with anyone but ourselves, which we can already do in English anyway, and there's not even a terribly susbstantial corpus of historical Manx literature or cultural artefacts that learning Manx would provide access to.

 

Again, I wish to make it clear that I'm not denying that to some learning Manx is a very pleasurable activity of which they're justifiably proud, but with regards to the wider issue of Manx in modern society I see little reason for the rest of us to follow suit.