Conducting Business In Manx

[Lost Login]

OK I know I should not feed the troll but here goes

 

Dear me, no wonder you're lost. The slogan "Come Home to a Real Fire" was being punted around at the same time that the welsh nationalist wankers calling themselves "The Sons of Owain Glen Dwr" (look it up) were burning down what they thought were holiday cottages owned by english but needless to say they got that wrong as well. Fancy not knowing that little bit of Welsh history

 

 

They were actually called Meibion Glyndŵr the English translation that you have used being I would suggest purely that a translation for the English. But even in the english translation they would spell Glyndŵr correctly

The point is that you don't need roadsigns in Welsh to preserve the culture. After all, they can't even agree amongst themselves. On roadsigns in North Wales they put the welsh first and in South Wales they put the english first.

 

In some parts of Wales they also have signs that are only in Welsh. In general it is based on the logic of what is the majority language in that region. If it is english as it is in many parts of South Wales then English is first, if it is Welsh as in the North then Welsh is first.

 

On roadsigns in North Wales they put the welsh first and in South Wales they put the english first. Now if there were drivers in Wales who didn't know what "SLOW" meant then fair enough. But face it, they all do or they shouldn't be driving. It's like a "ONE WAY" sign. Drivers see the white arrow on a blue background in a rectangle and know it means one way. In Wales it has to have "UN FFORDD" written on it as well. Why, do they not know the sign means one way or something?

 

In the england there are also One Way Signs that have one way written underneath. I presume you have a problem with that as well. Mind you the average cyclist does not understand either instruction

 

Frankly while the Welsh insist on having dual-language roadsigns I think they should all be banned from driving anywhere else in the UK. Because if they don't understand the roadsigns in english then driving in england is clearly too dangerous for them. QED....

 

So maybe they should all be in English and that the English should be banned from driving in Wales if they do not understand Welsh. I presume that when or if you drive on the continent you have a thorough understanding of the roadsigns and what is written on them?

 

I would also presume you are in favour of takeing down all the foreign language warning sides in the Isle of Man, test visting TT bikers on their english before we let them off the boat

[bluemonday]

I'd suggest the take up rate of a language that has fallen into 'disuse' amongst the general population would largely depend on the take up rate amongst the young.

Hence the kids now learning it will/may progress that takeup as they grow up.

[monasqueen]

Why shouldn't the Welsh have dual language road signs? There are still lots of them being brought up with Welsh as their first language, as there are Scots brought up as Gaelic speakers in parts of Scotland and Irish Gaeilge speakers in parts of Ireland.

 

Welsh and Scottish Gaelic are recognised European languages - see Eurolang

 

And as for inventing words - the English are really good at that - a lot of their words were stolen from other languages, way back into time immoral - 2 quotes from the Wikipedia entry on the subject of English language:

 

"English is a West Germanic language that originated from the Anglo-Frisian dialects brought to Britain by Germanic settlers and Roman auxiliary troops from various parts of what is now northwest Germany and the Northern Netherlands."

 

"Many French words are also intelligible to an English speaker (though pronunciations are often quite different) because English absorbed a large vocabulary from Norman and French, via Anglo-Norman after the Norman Conquest and directly from French in subsequent centuries. As a result, a large portion of English vocabulary is derived from French"

 

The last Manx born Manx speaker may have died, but there is a lot of merit in keeping the knowledge of Manx language going - at the very least to understand the origins of Manx place names, and names for flora and fauna - all part of the Island's heritage.

 

How many people pass the Fairy Bridge without saying "Moghrey Mie Vooinjer Veggey"?

[P.K.]

What a load of complete and utter waffle, especially the "I would also presume you are in favour of takeing down all the foreign language warning sides blah-di-blah-di-blah". Presume all you want and it won't make it even remotely true. The "correct" spelling of the "welsh sons of wankers" is also amusing as you clearly had no idea whatsoever of the "Come Home To A Real Fire" connotations. The words straws and clutching spring to mind here.

 

I drive abroad a lot with no problems but I really don't like the way they sign junctions with the place names rather than the road number. Our junction roadsigns invariably start with an unmistakeable "A6" or whatever, theirs have names like "RENNES" which is probably miles away from where you want to be. Because you want to get on the road to Rennes but then turn off before you get there! On the actual sliproad the road number might be on a little red rectangle attached to the top of the sign.

 

However the UK is not immune. All "A" and "E" roads in the EU have kilometre and half-kilometre posts along the route showing either how far you have gone or how far it is to the next main route. So now our motorways ("A" & "E" routes) have recently sprouted k & half-k markers. With our crap climate and awful food I don't see hordes of continentals travelling on our roads being comforted by their familiar k signs. Besides which all the roadsigns are still in miles but we just have to have the same as the EU, which no doubt cost us a bloody fortune.

[mouse30]

I'm all for the Welsh approach to this - The Manx language needs to be revived

[Lost Login]

What a load of complete and utter waffle, especially the "I would also presume you are in favour of takeing down all the foreign language warning sides blah-di-blah-di-blah". Presume all you want and it won't make it even remotely true. The "correct" spelling of the "welsh sons of wankers" is also amusing as you clearly had no idea whatsoever of the "Come Home To A Real Fire" connotations. The words straws and clutching spring to mind here.

 

If you had any idea of my background and upbringing you would realise that your assertions that I have no idea about Meibion Glyndŵr is extremely far fetched. Having lived for a time not far from Macynlleth in the eighties and early 90s they are very familiar to me just as was having to nip across the "old" county borders on a Sunday for a drink. I also at the time went out with a girl whose father spoke virtually no English which made conversation fund as my welsh was equally lacking

 

What a load of complete and utter waffle, especially the "I would also presume you are in favour of takeing down all the foreign language warning sides blah-di-blah-di-blah".

 

Not in my view as your assertion was that if the Welsh could not understand english road signs in Wales they should not be allowed to drive. The logical of that statement to me is that you would also be in favour of only drivers being able to understand english allowed to drive on Manx roads in which case we have no need for the foreign language signs

 

 

I drive abroad a lot with no problems but I really don't like the way they sign junctions with the place names rather than the road number. Our junction roadsigns invariably start with an unmistakeable "A6" or whatever, theirs have names like "RENNES" which is probably miles away from where you want to be. Because you want to get on the road to Rennes but then turn off before you get there! On the actual sliproad the road number might be on a little red rectangle attached to the top of the sign.

 

However the UK is not immune. All "A" and "E" roads in the EU have kilometre and half-kilometre posts along the route showing either how far you have gone or how far it is to the next main route. So now our motorways ("A" & "E" routes) have recently sprouted k & half-k markers. With our crap climate and awful food I don't see hordes of continentals travelling on our roads being comforted by their familiar k signs. Besides which all the roadsigns are still in miles but we just have to have the same as the EU, which no doubt cost us a bloody fortune.

 

 

 

 

I drive abroad a lot with no problems but I really don't like the way they sign junctions with the place names rather than the road number. Our junction roadsigns invariably start with an unmistakeable "A6" or whatever, theirs have names like "RENNES" which is probably miles away from where you want to be. Because you want to get on the road to Rennes but then turn off before you get there! On the actual sliproad the road number might be on a little red rectangle attached to the top of the sign.

 

I never accused you of having a problem of driving abroad. I merely asked wether you could understand all the writing on the road signs when in those countries. You believe the welsh should not be allowed to drive unless they can read roadsigns in english so I was merely enquirying if you applied this same criteria t yourself. i.e. you only derive in a country where you can understand the writing on the road signs. I would not like to thinbk of you being at all hypocritical

 

 

I drive abroad a lot with no problems but I really don't like the way they sign junctions with the place names rather than the road number. Our junction roadsigns invariably start with an unmistakeable "A6" or whatever, theirs have names like "RENNES" which is probably miles away from where you want to be. Because you want to get on the road to Rennes but then turn off before you get there! On the actual sliproad the road number might be on a little red rectangle attached to the top of the sign.

 

However the UK is not immune. All "A" and "E" roads in the EU have kilometre and half-kilometre posts along the route showing either how far you have gone or how far it is to the next main route. So now our motorways ("A" & "E" routes) have recently sprouted k & half-k markers. With our crap climate and awful food I don't see hordes of continentals travelling on our roads being comforted by their familiar k signs. Besides which all the roadsigns are still in miles but we just have to have the same as the EU, which no doubt cost us a bloody fortune.

 

I have to admit you come across as a real little englander with chips on both shoulders as it seems that if it is not as it is in England then you are not happy

[Saltire]

However the UK is not immune. All "A" and "E" roads in the EU have kilometre and half-kilometre posts along the route showing either how far you have gone or how far it is to the next main route. So now our motorways ("A" & "E" routes) have recently sprouted k & half-k markers. With our crap climate and awful food I don't see hordes of continentals travelling on our roads being comforted by their familiar k signs. Besides which all the roadsigns are still in miles but we just have to have the same as the EU, which no doubt cost us a bloody fortune.

 

Think you will find that there are plenty continentals come here on holiday. I live in Stirling, Scotland which is very popular with tourists. Only this morning I must have counted about 6 German registered cars or campers, a couple of Spanish tourist buses and a couple of Portugese motorbikes. And I am sure if I had went out of town a bit further I would have seen alot more. I have also found the Europeans to be usually competent drivers here locally, probably because they have a better grasp of our language to be able to follow roadsigns in English. If you go to the Highlands you may find the odd sign in French, German or Spanish (as well as Scottish gaelic) just to help people further. I don't understand why you think signs should be limited to only English. Surely they should be there to inform as many people as possible?

[Sebrof]

I don't understand why you think signs should be limited to only English. Surely they should be there to inform as many people as possible?

 

Quite right. Let's have them all in 26 languages.

 

It should be obvious to even some posters on here that warning signs should contain no words at all, just universal symbols, and direction signs should have the name of a place in it's most widely used form (which is usually going to be the English form for Welsh place names), plus the road number.

 

Having signs in multiple languages is absurd.

[Sebrof]

I bet the kids and teachers at the Manx-language medium school would be surprised to learn that they don't use it as their primary language, or in daily life (as would quite a number of the speakers).

 

What do you mean "or"? If it is their primary language, then that is what they speak in daily life. And I very much doubt that they do speak Manx as their primary language.

 

Nobody's advocating "forcing manx down people's throats", but surely it should be possible to write a cheque in manx in the Isle of Man without causing a fit of paranoia from the monoglot English-wannabes.

 

Go back and read the beginning of this thread. There is a law forcing businesses to accept business documents in Manx.

 

Part of the revival of the language depends on the ability to use it in everyday life - surely preventing someone from using their own language in their own country smacks of the removal of fundamental human rights.

 

Their own language is English, and English is the language of their country. So nobody is preventing them using their own language in their own country.

 

Learning to read cheques is hardly rocket science after all, is it ?

 

No, it's linguistics. What are you trying to say? That it is sensible to force all bank employees to learn to read Manx so that one nutter can write his cheques in Manx? That's really going to win people to the cause.

[Lost Login]

It should be obvious to even some posters on here that warning signs should contain no words at all, just universal symbols, and direction signs should have the name of a place in it's most widely used form (which is usually going to be the English form for Welsh place names), plus the road number.

 

Having signs in multiple languages is absurd.

 

In the main I think most warning and information signs are pictures only. It is the secondary information that signs is written.

 

I also agree that having signs in numerous languages is absurd.

 

However I am at a loss to understand why on this thread a few appear to believe that as the Welsh can speak English then that should be the language that is used. Surely it is a seperate country and if the Welsh want to use Welsh on road signs that is their business. PK appears to be upset by the implementation of Euro signs into England, maybe the welsh view comments about the implementation of English signs rather than Welsh similarly.

 

Many of the French, Germans speak English but we do not demand road signs in those countries are also in English, so why should we expect in in Wales?

[conradthewoollyllama]

However I am at a loss to understand why on this thread a few appear to believe that as the Welsh can speak English then that should be the language that is used. Surely it is a seperate country and if the Welsh want to use Welsh on road signs that is their business. PK appears to be upset by the implementation of Euro signs into England, maybe the welsh view comments about the implementation of English signs rather than Welsh similarly.

 

Many of the French, Germans speak English but we do not demand road signs in those countries are also in English, so why should we expect in in Wales?

 

Here here.

 

 

I don't see any harm in having bi lingual road signs. Most are recognised widely from the picture they display, not the words. Having the language on them isn't so that people can understand the sign, It's there because people are proud of the language and want to see it displayed. It spreads awareness, and adds a unique touch; Why should that be an issue?

[manxy]

My own answer to this has more twists than Oliver ever had, but I've seen lots of arguments, with no real solving of the problem. Try this for size.....

 

If the Government really want to bring back the Manx language, then there's always a way to do things, but would need financial backing. (Ah, the finance word again, looks like a loser from the start then)

 

They could run basic Manx language courses with a slight difference. Those that pass the course with the exact pronunciations (use a tape recorder as proof etc), could be entitled to (open for reasonable suggestions) slight tax rebate? percentage off their rates? Something along those lines?

 

Anyone could do this and get something back, from putting something in. If you don't do it, then you can't complain at those who have and gain something from it.

 

I realize that I'm open for the cheap shots at my suggestion, but try and go along with it and see if you can build on it with something better.

[Sebrof]

It should be obvious to even some posters on here that warning signs should contain no words at all, just universal symbols, and direction signs should have the name of a place in it's most widely used form (which is usually going to be the English form for Welsh place names), plus the road number.

 

Having signs in multiple languages is absurd.

 

In the main I think most warning and information signs are pictures only. It is the secondary information that signs is written.

 

I also agree that having signs in numerous languages is absurd.

 

However I am at a loss to understand why on this thread a few appear to believe that as the Welsh can speak English then that should be the language that is used. Surely it is a seperate country and if the Welsh want to use Welsh on road signs that is their business. PK appears to be upset by the implementation of Euro signs into England, maybe the welsh view comments about the implementation of English signs rather than Welsh similarly.

 

Many of the French, Germans speak English but we do not demand road signs in those countries are also in English, so why should we expect in in Wales?

 

Wales is not a separate country. It is part of the UK. Even in Wales, Welsh is a minority language, so for that reason, if no other, it makes sense to have signs in English. Another reason is that every Welsh speaker speaks English, whilst few English speakers speak Welsh.

 

We need to separate the need to provide vital information intelligibly from a minority desire to promote a minority language.

 

And as the UK is part of the EU, it surely makes sense to adopt EU standards, especially since the rest of the world often takes its cue from Europe.

[Sebrof]

However I am at a loss to understand why on this thread a few appear to believe that as the Welsh can speak English then that should be the language that is used. Surely it is a seperate country and if the Welsh want to use Welsh on road signs that is their business. PK appears to be upset by the implementation of Euro signs into England, maybe the welsh view comments about the implementation of English signs rather than Welsh similarly.

 

Many of the French, Germans speak English but we do not demand road signs in those countries are also in English, so why should we expect in in Wales?

 

Here here.

 

 

I don't see any harm in having bi lingual road signs. Most are recognised widely from the picture they display, not the words. Having the language on them isn't so that people can understand the sign, It's there because people are proud of the language and want to see it displayed. It spreads awareness, and adds a unique touch; Why should that be an issue?

 

 

I suspect you mean "Hear, hear!".

 

Bilingual road signs are more confusing to read than monolingual, and since road signs have a major bearing on safety, it makes sense to use one language. It is also cheaper.

 

There are much better ways to demonstrate national pride than by putting up confusing road signs. And I am not sure how or why one can be proud of a language. The literature of that language perhaps, though there is precious little Welsh literature, other than the interminable Mabinogion.

[Sebrof]

..... if the Welsh want to use Welsh on road signs that is their business.

 

According to that unimpeachable authority, Wikipaedia, 16% of Welsh people can speak, read, and write Welsh. And 99.9% of Welsh speakers can speak read and write English.

 

Hardly justifies all the expense of printing every government document in two languages.