Conducting Business In Manx

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Wales is not a separate country. It is part of the UK. Even in Wales, Welsh is a minority language, so for that reason, if no other, it makes sense to have signs in English. Another reason is that every Welsh speaker speaks English, whilst few English speakers speak Welsh.

 

We need to separate the need to provide vital information intelligibly from a minority desire to promote a minority language.

 

And as the UK is part of the EU, it surely makes sense to adopt EU standards, especially since the rest of the world often takes its cue from Europe.

 

Wales is a seperate country in my opinion just as England & Scotland are. I am also not sure whether UK is a country. Whilst I may disagree with you though at least your position is consistent unlike PK's and I agree that there is an argument for adopting an EU standard whether you are in England, Wales Scotland etc. Where I get annoyed is when people like PK suggest that England should set precedent in Wales, Scotland whilst not accepting in return that the EU might do likewise in England as to me the argument is inconsistent.

 

I would also disagree with your statement that very few English Speakers speak Welsh as many I knew did. However I presume you mean that whilst nearly all Welsh children are brought up bilingual many English may not be. I think they actually have a sensible compromise in that they leave it to each county and that takes into account the huge difference in numbers of welsh speakers in different areas. In places it may be the majority language whereby in other parts f Wales it definately is not.

 

Finally I am not sure the use of bilingual signs is a way of promoting a language minority or otherwise. In Wales I feel it is more a way of reengorcing atht you are in adifferent country. The bilingual signs being a means of readily stating that you are now in a different country as to be frank otherwise you would notice little difference between the two. It is also why I would like to see more Manx signs overhere as it would differentiate or reinforce that we are a seperate country from the UK

[Jimcalagon]

Wales is not a separate country. It is part of the UK. Even in Wales, Welsh is a minority language, so for that reason, if no other, it makes sense to have signs in English. Another reason is that every Welsh speaker speaks English, whilst few English speakers speak Welsh.

 

In many parts of Wales, English is, in fact, the minority langauge. Many people grow up with English as their second language and Welsh as their 'mother tongue' - especially in areas of North Wales such as western Snowdonia and the Lleyn peninsula. And it's not just older people; anyone who watched Big Brother the other when Glyn from Blaenau Ffestiniog was on the show will remember that he struggled with english sometimes as he normally used welsh at home. I have no problems with Welsh people using their own language in their own country as it is a living language which has never died out. Along with Icelandic (Old Norse) and Basque it's probably the oldest living language in Europe.

 

Manx isn't - it's a dead language and it's dead because no-one was bothered to keep it alive. If you want to resurrect it, fine but don't try and force your obscure scholarly interest on the largely uninterested general population through legislation if you want to win friends.

[Saltire]

If you go to the Highlands you may find the odd sign in French, German or Spanish (as well as Scottish gaelic) just to help people further. I don't understand why you think signs should be limited to only English. Surely they should be there to inform as many people as possible?

 

Read the first bit of the post Sebrof. I was not suggesting that every single roadsign should be re written in every language. And we all know that most highway code signs don't have text anyway.

 

However can you tell me that having a written "keep left" reminder sign in 3 of the main European languages on the A9, one of Scotlands most dangerous roads from Perth to Inverness, because it keeps alternating between single and dual carriageway is a bad idea? Many tourists use that road, and anything that makes it that bit safer for everyone gets my vote.

[conradthewoollyllama]

I suspect you mean "Hear, hear!".

 

I suspect you knew exactly what i meant

[Sebrof]

Wales is a seperate country in my opinion just as England & Scotland are. I am also not sure whether UK is a country.

 

Show me a Welsh passport, and I will believe you.

 

However, I will concede that the word country has a variety of different possible meanings. In my view, the most important meaning is that a country is a sovereign state. Wales, in my opinion, is a nation. It is an area containing a largely homogenous group of people with a common history, culture, and (in a broad sense) religion. You might indeed expect them to be a country, but thanks to the workings of history, they are not.

 

In Wales, English and Welsh have equal status, although, as I pointed out, Welsh is the primary language of a small minority (though a majority in some areas).

 

The UK is a sovereign state, and whatever your definitions, all sovereign states are countries.

 

English is the language of the UK, and therefore the obvious language to use for anything official, including road signs. (The IOM is not in the UK, of course, but English is nonetheless the de facto language of the IOM.)

 

I strongly support diversity, and therefore the right of the Welsh to speak Welsh, and of the Manx to speak Manx. But I don't support expensive official efforts to force either language on the majority.

 

Equally, I abhor the practice of UK councils putting out documents in Bengali, or any other language not indigenous to the British Isles. Immigrants should learn the local lingo.

[P.K.]

This is evolving into quite an interesting debate but this is getting tiresome:

 

If you had any idea of my background and upbringing you would realise that your assertions that I have no idea about Meibion Glyndŵr is extremely far fetched. Having lived for a time not far from Macynlleth in the eighties and early 90s they are very familiar to me just as was having to nip across the "old" county borders on a Sunday for a drink. I also at the time went out with a girl whose father spoke virtually no English which made conversation fund as my welsh was equally lacking.

Don't bother trying to beef up your "Sons of a Welsh Wanker" credentials. Instead research the origins of the expression "Come Home to a Real Fire" in conjunction with torching holiday homes- it may help you sound less stupid in the future. After all, you don't seriously think that the Hon Phil Gawne MHK thought that up all by himself do you? If so you're thicker than your posts suggest. Still, you could always edit the "Login" in your username to read "Cause".

 

I have to admit you come across as a real little englander with chips on both shoulders as it seems that if it is not as it is in England then you are not happy

Dear me, you can't even get that right. The quote is:

 

The Welsh are a very well-balanced race - they've got a chip on each shoulder!

Face it, there is absolutely NO requirement to have all the bs in Welsh and English including roadsigns and we all know it.

 

However this I totally agree with:

The last Manx born Manx speaker may have died, but there is a lot of merit in keeping the knowledge of Manx language going - at the very least to understand the origins of Manx place names, and names for flora and fauna - all part of the Island's heritage.

 

How many people pass the Fairy Bridge without saying "Moghrey Mie Vooinjer Veggey"?

Quite right. Sensible with the correct sense of proportion. Unlike the Welsh...

[Sebrof]

If you go to the Highlands you may find the odd sign in French, German or Spanish (as well as Scottish gaelic) just to help people further. I don't understand why you think signs should be limited to only English. Surely they should be there to inform as many people as possible?

 

Read the first bit of the post Sebrof. I was not suggesting that every single roadsign should be re written in every language. And we all know that most highway code signs don't have text anyway.

 

However can you tell me that having a written "keep left" reminder sign in 3 of the main European languages on the A9, one of Scotlands most dangerous roads from Perth to Inverness, because it keeps alternating between single and dual carriageway is a bad idea? Many tourists use that road, and anything that makes it that bit safer for everyone gets my vote.

 

I can see why they do it, but I would choose to use a textless symbol.

[Sebrof]

I suspect you mean "Hear, hear!".

 

I suspect you knew exactly what i meant

 

I suspect you're right.

[Saltire]

Wales is a seperate country in my opinion just as England & Scotland are. I am also not sure whether UK is a country.

 

Show me a Welsh passport, and I will believe you.

 

So that means England isn't a country then? Because you don't get English passports either. What you get regardless if you are in England, Scotland, Wales and N. Ireland is A United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland passport!

[P.K.]

Correct. England is a country for some sporting events but otherwise it's part of the UK.

 

And your point is?

[Lost Login]

Bilingual road signs are more confusing to read than monolingual, and since road signs have a major bearing on safety, it makes sense to use one language. It is also cheaper.

 

Cheaper Yes. Safer less Confusing I have my doubts as I am sure you very quickly get used to signs just as you do when driving on the continent and I have never really noticed them when driving in Wales. In addition most signs are pictorial these days and it is also probably arguable which a greater risk. A bilingual sign or a sign the minority can not read. My view is that there probably is nothing in it as we very quickly adapt to whatever is being used

 

There are much better ways to demonstrate national pride than by putting up confusing road signs. And I am not sure how or why one can be proud of a language. The literature of that language perhaps, though there is precious little Welsh literature, other than the interminable Mabinogion.

I do not think it is about national pride but as I have said previously more about marking out that you are now in Wales.

 

Ultimately though it should be all about respect and I think it should be down to the Welsh to decide if they want their signs in Welsh, English, Bilingual or whatever. Equally I would not expect them to have input on the Signs in England or Scotland. I also think that it is interesting that it is Wales that is being picked on when in Eire the position is similar

 

Finally whilst I may agree about the Mabinogion I would say there is a great deal of Welsh literature although it much may be religeous based or from the poets. It could also be argued that there is actually older than English Literature as the use of the Welsh language has remained constant over time whereas English has changed in form and "old English" would not necessary be recognisable as such to us these days.

[Saltire]

Correct. England is a country for some sporting events but otherwise it's part of the UK.

 

And your point is?

 

Look back the posts. Sebrof said that he did not believe that Wales was a country because it did not have it's own passport.

 

England or Scotland don't have their own passports, but they too are countries. We are all issued with the same.

 

How can England be a country for sporting events only? It is a country within the UK.

 

P.S. My last post on this topic, this is giving me a bloody sore head now

[Lost Login]

"Sons of a Welsh Wanker"

 

The Welsh are a very well-balanced race - they've got a chip on each shoulder

Face it, there is absolutely NO requirement to have all the bs in Welsh and English including roadsigns and we all know it.

 

Quite right. Sensible with the correct sense of proportion. Unlike the Welsh...

 

You really have a complex about the Welsh don't you. I have no idea what they did to upset you but I have to admit good on them and my respect for the Welsh is Growing

 

As for not knowing about the origins of "Come Home to a real fire" I expect I do, As I said I lived and worked in the more millitant part of Wales at the time and it was a policy I disagreed with as whilst I could understand the concerns about second homes inflating prices and being detrimental to villages I also believed and believe that the related income is important to many parts of rural Wales.

 

Finally with regard to the phrase "Come Home to A Real Fire" I have not checked but whilst there their was a policy of burning second homes, I do not believe the phrase was coined by any Welsh Nationalists (Well not unless you count Griff Rhys Jones) but it was from a sketch from Not The Nine O'Clock News

[Sebrof]

......... In addition most signs are pictorial these days and it is also probably arguable which a greater risk. A bilingual sign or a sign the minority can not read.

 

Every Welshman (if he can read at all) can read English, so the point doesn't arise.

 

Ultimately though it is all about respect I think it should be down to the Welsh to decide if they want their signs in Welsh, English Bilingual etc. Equally I would not expect them to have input on the Signs in England or Scotland.

 

I suspect if you asked the Welsh, a majority would be happy to have warning signs in English only.

 

I also think that that it is interesting that it is Wales that is being picked our when in Eire the position is similar

 

Unlike Wales, Eire is a sovereign state, and of no more relevance to this argument than Burkina Faso.

 

Finally whilst I may agree about the Mabinogion I would say there is a great deal of Welsh literature although it much may be religeous based or from the poets. It could also be argued that there is actually older than English Literature as the use of the Welsh language has remained constant over time whereas English has changed in form and "old English" would not necessary be recognisable as such to us these days.

 

Interesting that Welsh hasn't changed much over the years. There is certainly little English literature before Shakespeare that most people would consider readable, or would choose to read. Chaucer is only readable by most people in translation. However, I think you would agree that the phrase "a great deal" is pushing it a bit. I doubt if there are any bookshops in Wales outside the university towns which have more than half a dozen books in Welsh. Nowadays, Welsh is mainly spoken or sung, not read.

[Sebrof]

Correct. England is a country for some sporting events but otherwise it's part of the UK.

 

And your point is?

 

Look back the posts. Sebrof said that he did not believe that Wales was a country because it did not have it's own passport.

 

England or Scotland don't have their own passports, but they too are countries. We are all issued with the same.

 

How can England be a country for sporting events only? It is a country within the UK.

 

P.S. My last post on this topic, this is giving me a bloody sore head now

 

No need to post again, but you will see that Sebrof did not say that England is a country. There are two countries in the British Isles: the UK and Eire. Within the UK are three nations and a fudge (Northern Ireland). Also in the BI are a number of anomalous entities with a degree of internal self-government. Most of us here are lucky to live in one of them - the IOM.

 

There are no rules regarding what sporting and other bodies do. There are separate soccer teams for Eire and NI, and one rugby team for the whole island. There is an Institute of Chartered Accounts for England and Wales, another for Scotland, and a third for the whole of Ireland (you figure, as the Americans say).

 

Like the English language, what constitutes nationality and nationhood in these islands is fraught with traps for the unwary. Let us encourage diversity, and discourage unnecessary expense pandering to extremists.