Conducting Business In Manx

[Skeddan]

England and Scotland are countries, but not distinct sovereign states. Instead they are constituent countries in a political union, making up a single sovereign state. (a bit like a partnership is a single legal entity / legal person, but made up of a number of natural people).

 

Countries who have the Queen as head of state can either be in a political union, or a personal union. (this corresponds to the notion that the Queen has two bodies, a 'political body', and a natural body). In a personal union, the countries the head of state happens to be the same person, but they are distinct governments and jurisdictions - i.e. Westminster cannot legislate. In a political union, they share the same political system - i.e. Westminster has legislative power - though it may devolve / delegate some of these powers to regional authorities.

 

(IoM is not in a political union with England as it is not part of the UK. Neither is it in a personal union as Westminster does have legislative powers over IoM).

[Sebrof]

England and Scotland are countries, but not distinct sovereign states. Instead they are constituent countries in a political union, making up a single sovereign state. (a bit like a partnership is a single legal entity / legal person, but made up of a number of natural people).

 

Countries who have the Queen as head of state can either be in a political union, or a personal union. (this corresponds to the notion that the Queen has two bodies, a 'political body', and a natural body). In a personal union, the countries the head of state happens to be the same person, but they are distinct governments and jurisdictions - i.e. Westminster cannot legislate. In a political union, they share the same political system - i.e. Westminster has legislative power - though it may devolve / delegate some of these powers to regional authorities.

 

(IoM is not in a political union with England as it is not part of the UK. Neither is it in a personal union as Westminster does have legislative powers over IoM).

 

You are quoting just one of a number of possible definitions of the word country, and unfortunately a narrow one that does not embrace some of the most important attributes of a country - like sovereignty, government, politics, parliament, nationality, law, head of state, and currency.

 

In fact, take these away, and there's not much left.

 

This is why it is best to refer to the members of the UK as nations, not countries. Nice and vague.

[Skeddan]

I take your point Sebrof, only 'country' is the vague term - distinct geographical area or territory, whereas 'nation' is generally (though not always) used as 'nation state' ie. (sovereign state), hence 'nationality'. It could be said that Scotland is a nation, but that would be a slightly unusual use of the term and might be misleading in suggesting it is a nation state (i.e. a sovereign state) - which it isn't.

[Sebrof]

I take your point Sebrof, only 'country' is the vague term - distinct geographical area or territory, whereas 'nation' is generally (though not always) used as 'nation state' ie. (sovereign state), hence 'nationality'. It could be said that Scotland is a nation, but that would be a slightly unusual use of the term and might be misleading in suggesting it is a nation state (i.e. a sovereign state) - which it isn't.

 

The difficulty is that although nations perhaps should be states, sometimes they are not. In other words, nations and states are not the same thing.

 

This is illustrated by the very term "nation state", which means a nation (one homogenous people) that is also an autonomous state. If nations were always states, one would just say nation, not nation state.

 

Usually, most people would say that a nation (like the Welsh) ought to be a state, and they might also expect that states that are not single nations (like the UK) are likely to have problems reconciling the interests of the different constituent nations.

 

The history of the last thousand years in Europe has been one of a coming together of nations into states - France, Germany, Italy, etc., were all once composed of a number of separate kingdoms or principalities. The UK has bucked the trend so far, but perhaps not for much longer.

 

The word nationality is a bit anomalous, because it relates to a state, not a nation.

 

Edit: Perhaps we need a new word: stationality. Or perhaps not.

[Lost Login]

I suspect if you asked the Welsh, a majority would be happy to have warning signs in English only.

 

It depends what they were asked and how they were asked. If you asked them should they be only in one language then I suspect that you are probably right. If it mentioned English only or taking away Welsh then I do not think so because as a whole the nation is concerened about having its own identity, being different or seperate from England. You need only look at sport where like in amny other countries to many beating the English is all that matters and to many theu only support two team Wales and whoever is playing England! It may be considered my many to be small minded but it still matters to many

 

I doubt if there are any bookshops in Wales outside the university towns which have more than half a dozen books in Welsh. Nowadays, Welsh is mainly spoken or sung, not read.

 

If you were talking about many parts of South Wales or near the border I would agree with you but in parts of North Wales and Mid where Welsh is not necessary a minority language then I would not. In my view North & South Wales are almost two countries with one country, if using that term is still deemed acceptable!. One was influenced by the migration in and out of wales during times of boom and depression the other was not. They even speak slightly different versions of Welsh.

 

I have spent time in both the level of nationalism etc is markedly different just as is the concentration of the welsh language

 

Finally the outlook towards England by Wales & Scotland I believe varies depending on the poltical division. Devolution may have lifted some of the antagonism and Welsh Nationalism but I think this was helped by the toppling of the Tory Government. which was by the end basically propt up by the home counties. I think Wales & Scotland had 1 Conservative MP between them. Being governed by the Tories when they basically had no mandate in Wales or Scotland I think rankled with those countries and drove the nationalist agenda. Having a political make up similar to the rest of the UK I think has put it on the back burner. I will be interested to see what happens in a few years time if Cameron gets in and is similarly propt up by the Home Counties. Will the nationilist agenda rise again not just in Wales but also with in Cornwall and the North of Englad asking for a level of devolution

[Sebrof]

I suspect if you asked the Welsh, a majority would be happy to have warning signs in English only.

 

It depends what they were asked and how they were asked. If you asked them should they be only in one language then I suspect that you are probably right. If it mentioned English only or taking away Welsh then I do not think so because as a whole the nation is concerened about having its own identity, being different or seperate from England. You need only look at sport where like in amny other countries to many beating the English is all that matters and to many theu only support two team Wales and whoever is playing England! It may be considered my many to be small minded but it still matters to many

 

I agree. You would have to phrase the question very carefully. As in: "Road signs are for visitors (because locals know the way), and we think we will get more French and German tourists (and they will drive more safely) if we just used one language, and obviously the Europeans tend to learn English at school. By the way, the annual cost saving will fund a new Eisteddfod. What do you think?"

 

I doubt if there are any bookshops in Wales outside the university towns which have more than half a dozen books in Welsh. Nowadays, Welsh is mainly spoken or sung, not read.

 

If you were talking about many parts of South Wales or near the border I would agree with you but in parts of North Wales and Mid where Welsh is not necessary a minority language then I would not.

 

My mother is from the Vale of Clwyd, and I know North Wales well. A lot of Welsh is spoken, as you say, but not much is read. I can't speak for mid-Wales, but I would imagine the pattern is much the same.

 

In my view North & South Wales are almost two countries with one country, if using that term is still deemed acceptable!. One was influenced by the migration in and out of wales during times of boom and depression the other was not. They even speak slightly different versions of Welsh.

 

I have spent time in both the level of nationalism etc is markedly different just as is the concentration of the welsh language

 

Finally the outlook towards England by Wales & Scotland I believe varies depending on the poltical division. Devolution may have lifted some of the antagonism and Welsh Nationalism but I think this was helped by the toppling of the Tory Government. which was by the end basically propt up by the home counties. I think Wales & Scotland had 1 Conservative MP between them. Being governed by the Tories when they basically had no mandate in Wales or Scotland I think rankled with those countries and drove the nationalist agenda. Having a political make up similar to the rest of the UK I think has put it on the back burner. I will be interested to see what happens in a few years time if Cameron gets in and is similarly propt up by the Home Counties. Will the nationilist agenda rise again not just in Wales but also with in Cornwall and the North of Englad asking for a level of devolution

 

I don't disagree with any of that.

 

S

[Skeddan]

The difficulty is that although nations perhaps should be states, sometimes they are not. In other words, nations and states are not the same thing.

 

Sebrof, I agree - 'nation' need not be equivalent to 'nation state', and can be used more generally as you note. However these terms have become more synonymous, especially as we have the United Nations - full membership is of course limited to nation states (Hmm - Ukraine and Byelorussia post Yalta, but...). On the other hand Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia were not recognised as nation states in 1945 as they were treated as under occupation and unlawful annexation (i.e. sovereignty suspended but not extinguished), and were 'Soviet Dependencies'.

 

What is useful is to have 'nation' to refer to a nation state which has come under an Administering Power - and which is thus no longer treated as a sovereign state (like the Baltic states). One could also include nations in a political union - so Scotland could quite properly be considered to be a nation - though not a nation state. Also, even if not currently a nation state, IoM would also be a nation (a wee little one though). (However I wouldn't count the Channel Islands as a nation, but rather a sub-national territory)

 

In short, yes, I agree, Scotland and Wales are nations, even if not nation states.

[Freggyragh]

Hi - just to add my bit to this. I have driven in many countries, and I have very rarely been puzzled by a road sign in the local language. Obviously there are times when the international language should be used, but in most cases the local language is just fine with me - particularly in places where that local language is threatened. I also enjoy all the quirky place names in England - wouldn't it be sad if they too were to be translated into modern international english. Two extra points I would like to make - there are many people beside the kids who go to the bilingual school who speak Manx. The last native speaker may have died in 1974 - but there are a number of people still alive who were fluent decades before that. There are also a number of families who use Manx at home. I think PKs analogy to Welsh nationalism is just wrong. I respect the way the Welsh have preserved their language, but this is a totally separate issue to Welsh nationalism. The members of the Free Wales Army who were caught were almost all monoglot English speakers (compare that with their main target Charles Prince of Wales, who made both Scottish Gaelic and Welsh TV voiceovers for his "Old Man of Lochnagar" book). Amongst Manx speakers, as is the case with Welsh, Irish and Scottish Gaelic speakers, there is a whole range of political opinion (or non-opinion). Also, The various Nationalist political parties, have often been hardly any more supportive of minority languages than the Unionisits. It was the Tories who introduced the Scottish Gaelic Broadcasting Fund, not the SNP. It is hardly surprising that many English people have contributed to Welsh and Gaelic culture in many important ways, these languages are all part of the share heritage of these Isles. If it seems strange that many in these Isles aren't keen to support the English in sports - you can blame that on people like PK who give the English such a bad reputation for arrogance and ignorance - which is as inaccurate a stereotype as the one he is trying to create of the fanatical Manx speaker.

[P.K.]

I think PKs analogy to Welsh nationalism is just wrong. I respect the way the Welsh have preserved their language, but this is a totally separate issue to Welsh nationalism. If it seems strange that many in these Isles aren't keen to support the English in sports - you can blame that on people like PK who give the English such a bad reputation for arrogance and ignorance - which is as inaccurate a stereotype as the one he is trying to create of the fanatical Manx speaker.

Nice try but wrong and wrong. Besides I can't give the English a bad reputation - only the Manx. Errrr.... are you sure you've properly thought this through?

 

You clearly missed this though:

 

However this I totally agree with:

The last Manx born Manx speaker may have died, but there is a lot of merit in keeping the knowledge of Manx language going - at the very least to understand the origins of Manx place names, and names for flora and fauna - all part of the Island's heritage.

 

How many people pass the Fairy Bridge without saying "Moghrey Mie Vooinjer Veggey"?

Quite right. Sensible with the correct sense of proportion. Unlike the Welsh...

I would absolutey support this. However the point I am making is that the last thing you should want to do is take it as far as the Welsh have. I drive to S Wales a lot and never mind the joke that you only pay to get in over the Severn (they could levy any amount they chose on those desperate to leave) but the first Welsh roadsign sends out an unmistakeable message. The message reads "We all know that everything from roadsigns to assembly edicts being in both languages is a complete and utter waste of time and money ergo what a bunch of tiny-minded wankers the Welsh must be". And we all know it's true. Many years ago I walked into a cafe in Sennybridge, everyone was chatting in English. As soon as I ordered my brew or whatever they all immediately changed to speaking Welsh.

 

So by the same token this is true as well:

 

I think it's as pathetic as writing cheques in gaelic knowing full well that the bank employees are just as likely to be non-manx as manx.

[The Bastard]

Many years ago I walked into a cafe in Sennybridge, everyone was chatting in English. As soon as I ordered my brew or whatever they all immediately changed to speaking Welsh.

 

ROFL ! I've been waiting for the past couple of days to see which Billy Brit would recycle this piece of classic monoglot paranoia, after joking about some of the stuff in this thread with my Welsh MGP guests - they'll be very amused when I tell them someone actually posted it today !

 

I've heard this urban legend so many times from monoglot English speakers, as if the Welsh language was never used privately, only to exclude the English. It cracks Welsh speakers up.

[Chinahand]

Road signs in foreign languages - look what I have to put up with - that said I've only driven a very small amount in China - just not worth the risk! Though I have had taxi drivers getting confused trying to find signs to factories out in the sticks and asking me which sign to follow - great fun!

 

 

 

 

 

The most interesting thing is that as everyone in China understands the characters, but the authorities understand the need to provide transliterations for foreigners, what the Chinese are now doing is not only transliterating the place names etc, but they are also translating the directions into English.

 

Shows the advantages we get from speaking the world's business language - but it must piss the French off!

[bluemonday]

Virtually everything pisses the French off.

[P.K.]

So you were there as well! Well I never....

 

Apparently it was a little game they liked to play "insult the squaddies to their faces" while relieving us of our dosh. It was the same in the papershop next door. It was just the youngsters and of course we didn't actually know they were taking the piss but there were a lot of smirks about the place. I guess they don't get much other amusement. Especially as we were there for over a month and it only rained twice - once for 13 days and once for 15. I never went there but apparently in the nearby club in Merthyr they treated us with out and out contempt, so you just wouldn't go there. Cardiff was full of wankers trying to prove how hard they were so the only place we could go to for some r&r in the whole shitty country was Barry Island which really was a hike. As far as I'm concerned the Welsh with their tiny minds deserve their awful country.

[BigDave]

Many years ago I walked into a cafe in Sennybridge, everyone was chatting in English. As soon as I ordered my brew or whatever they all immediately changed to speaking Welsh.

 

ROFL ! I've been waiting for the past couple of days to see which Billy Brit would recycle this piece of classic monoglot paranoia, after joking about some of the stuff in this thread with my Welsh MGP guests - they'll be very amused when I tell them someone actually posted it today !

 

I've heard this urban legend so many times from monoglot English speakers, as if the Welsh language was never used privately, only to exclude the English. It cracks Welsh speakers up.

It does actually happen though, although it's not exclusive to the Welsh. Wherever you get groups of multilingual people you'll find it happens frequently - usually so that they can pass comment on another person without them understanding. I know several South Africans that do it a lot - mainly so they can speak in a lecherous manner in public and get away with it!

 

Most of the time it probably is just paranoia though. We who only speak on language find it difficult to understand that those who use two languages every day tend to end up speaking a bizzare mixture of both between themselves rather than stick to one or the other.

[monasqueen]

Many years ago I walked into a cafe in Sennybridge, everyone was chatting in English. As soon as I ordered my brew or whatever they all immediately changed to speaking Welsh.

 

ROFL ! I've been waiting for the past couple of days to see which Billy Brit would recycle this piece of classic monoglot paranoia, after joking about some of the stuff in this thread with my Welsh MGP guests - they'll be very amused when I tell them someone actually posted it today !

 

I've heard this urban legend so many times from monoglot English speakers, as if the Welsh language was never used privately, only to exclude the English. It cracks Welsh speakers up.

 

Not so much of an urban myth. It can happen, and the treatment of obvious "foreigners" varies in different parts of Wales. In some parts, if you go to the bar in an obviously Welsh speaking pub where you detect "the look" or the muttered comment in Welsh (maybe "mochyn Lloegr" = "English pig") try putting in your order loudly in Welsh. Dau beint o gwrw os gwelwch yn dda = 2 pints of beer please. You may then find that the locals start talking in English!

 

In France, it is common for a smattering of pigeon French to be dealt with by a shopkeeper conducting the rest of the business in English. Not so in Belgium, where they let you stew!!