sausage Posted August 23, 2007 Share Posted August 23, 2007 Maybe its perception but seems to me over this summer hardly a day has passed with a fatal shooting or stabbing making the headlines, often involving teenagers. Scary direction that society is heading in and some radical measures need to be taken. Would attribute alcohol to be one of the main drivers, surely the drug of choice for the majority of 13-18 year olds who are involved in this street violence culture. And sentencing a fifteen year old to a ten year sentence for them to be free in five and back on the streets before their 21st birthday cannot be right. Value my quality of life on IOM, no means perfect but a damn site safer than UK urban areas these days Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert Tatlock Posted August 23, 2007 Share Posted August 23, 2007 IMO, the problem is that people have to first recognise that events such as this are part of a chain i.e. that todays irresponsible youngsters are more often the offspring of irresponsible parents who are in turn the irresponsible offspring of the children of the eighties etc. So, if as the bulk of people seem to think, that this behaviour is down to 'parental irresponsibility', then surely one way to break the chain is for the state to take 'parental responsibility' where required. By that I mean, if a kid gets into trouble (at a certain level of seriousness) the whole family needs to be assessed, kids forced to attend state run local school/after school centres and the parents to attend parenting classes. So Parents on benefits (at a certain level of seriousness), have their income assessed, told their benefits will be reduced and (as the state take responsibility in the daytime for their kids) that the parent(s) have to work. If capable parents refuse to work, then in serious, or potentially serious situations, the kids go into full time care and benefits are removed, and the parents get moved into smaller social housing units. The fact of the matter is that most of these shootings are happening in poverty stricken (high state benefit) areas. For 'well off' parents of misbehaving kids, the kids should be forced to attend state run local school/after school centres, and the parents to attend parenting classes and face a fine. Refusal and the kids go into care full time. IMO, chucking several billion quid at this would work, provided the supporting infrastructure was built - replacing the boundaries that the offspring of irresponsible parents seem to have lost. The same infrastructure could be used by all youngsters, thus giving them somewhere to be from 8am till 8pm every day. If we don't act now and break the chain, then like a tapeworm, it will simply continue to grow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mission Posted August 23, 2007 Share Posted August 23, 2007 Can't we just let parents discipline their offspring, like what they used to - without said offspring threatening to "ring childline" ? I'm not talking about kicking the living shit out of kids but a firm hand never did me any harm... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gladys Posted August 24, 2007 Share Posted August 24, 2007 How true, Mish. But society has become 'lazy', everything is someone else's fault and children are definitely someone else's responsibilty. Hell, the parents don't even take responsibility for themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cronky Posted August 24, 2007 Share Posted August 24, 2007 By that I mean, if a kid gets into trouble (at a certain level of seriousness) the whole family needs to be assessed, kids forced to attend state run local school/after school centres and the parents to attend parenting classes. The assumption with this argument is that the people running the Nanny State are any better than the problem families themselves. The Nanny State is not a role model for the traditional family that my generation grew up in. Politically correct state functionaries are part of the root cause of the problem. Their attitudes are just as warped, but in a different way, as the attitudes of the parents of the children they seek to replace. Children brought up in care have a rotten time in the UK. Equally, the UK is a country full of laws but with little justice. The Times today reports how UK adoption targets lead to babies being snatched at birth when there is little or no evidence against the parents. I do not know how you restore family values in the UK. If anybody has a good plan then it will take a generation to take effect - if it works. However, with this shooting we have reached an absoulute nadit of awfulness so hopefully people will start screaming that enough is enough. If there is one thing I would change it is the attitude of the Police. The UK needs community policing. Not CCTV, spy databases, forms, loads of new laws or politically correct Government policy. Policeman Plod, on the beat, talking to the community and being seen to take action. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert Tatlock Posted August 24, 2007 Share Posted August 24, 2007 By that I mean, if a kid gets into trouble (at a certain level of seriousness) the whole family needs to be assessed, kids forced to attend state run local school/after school centres and the parents to attend parenting classes. The assumption with this argument is that the people running the Nanny State are any better than the problem families themselves. The Nanny State is not a role model for the traditional family that my generation grew up in. Politically correct state functionaries are part of the root cause of the problem. Their attitudes are just as warped, but in a different way, as the attitudes of the parents of the children they seek to replace. Children brought up in care have a rotten time in the UK. Equally, the UK is a country full of laws but with little justice. The Times today reports how UK adoption targets lead to babies being snatched at birth when there is little or no evidence against the parents. I do not know how you restore family values in the UK. If anybody has a good plan then it will take a generation to take effect - if it works. However, with this shooting we have reached an absoulute nadit of awfulness so hopefully people will start screaming that enough is enough. If there is one thing I would change it is the attitude of the Police. The UK needs community policing. Not CCTV, spy databases, forms, loads of new laws or politically correct Government policy. Policeman Plod, on the beat, talking to the community and being seen to take action. I understand what you are saying regarding the Nanny state and the potential failure of officialdom. I am not advocating the nanny state in this case, rather a 'reactive state'. Such moves I am suggesting would only happen after a conviction (say, predetermined levels of crime on a scale of seriousness) and would naturally have the same appeal process that exists in law already. At work people have verbal, written and final warnings before they get sacked - a process designed to modify an employees behaviour, whilst at the same time protecting the rights of the employer and employee. There has to be an ultimate deterrent for feral families, because the lack of family values has removed deterrents otherwise instilled by such values. I cannot see how these values can be 'replaced' without local communities (i.e. local magistrates) being able to react to the path certain people have chosen to take, and being empowered to take specific directed preventative action before it is too late. Intervention can come in the form of support, parent classes to supervised social/community service all the way up to taking kids into care. Religion, nuclear families and duty previously provided these values. Quite simply these people need educating and telling - not mollycoddling and ghetoising in state benefit funded estates. I cannot see any other alternative other than a combination of the law, social services and the education system stepping in at some point and taking control of the situation. There is practically full employment in the UK, and the unemployed figures at this time (in the UK) reflect a great number of people on benefits. In the eighties the conservatives took benefits away and aliented people, in the 90s labour have increased benefits and aliented groups of people by making them state reliant. Outside of school and many homes, most teenagers are forgotten and have nowhere to go other than the streets. There is a middle ground that has to be found. Make no mistake, that the patterns of UK behaviour leading up to such serious incidents are now firmly being demonstrated on the island e.g. what kind of idiots desecrate war memorials and graveyards? ... and how many mindless acts of drug/drink fuelled violence are happening here each week? I'll give it less than ten years before we have a similar shooting here, especially given the many links to the UK represented by around 50% of the population on the island (and many to some areas such as Liverpool and Manchester). If we don't prepare to deal with it we will very quickly be in a similar situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mutley Posted August 24, 2007 Share Posted August 24, 2007 Bring back conscription. If they're so fond of guns and killing then let's get some use out of them. Discipline and structure that's what they need. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katy2Shoes Posted August 31, 2007 Share Posted August 31, 2007 Hope you all dont mind me replying . I only joined tonight. But I come from Liverpool and I thought you might like to know what its like there. (We moved to Douglas) Lots of kids got drugs and lots of gangs about to make kids get drugs. Some times you can get in trouble for being good if you know what I mean. Also in a city its good areas and bad areas (Croxteth Park is a good area so I dunno what happened there) Everyone in Liverpool is so upset what happened. We good people really and 11 year old kids getting killed isnt normal. Im from Toxteth and lots of people think thats bad place ..but I dont. One of the reasons we came here is cos my dad was worried about my brother who is 12. He thought it better to come here. My Dad is Manx. I Hope they catch the people who killed that kid cos it could have been anyone who got killed .. Croxteth Park is quite posh. what Im trying to say is Liverpool isnt bad place ..is no worst than anywhere and I hope all you nice people over here dont think all us Scousers are bad ..we arent. kk kate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted August 31, 2007 Share Posted August 31, 2007 that todays irresponsible youngsters are more often the offspring of irresponsible parents who are in turn the irresponsible offspring of the children of the eighties Errrr, well Teflon-shoulders, children of eighties-born parents, even assuming they whelped at 16, would at most be about 10 which is rather below child-rearing age. I think you are about a generation out in your reasoning - typical Indie reader..... I think a lot of opinion on here is exactly right in that there are two problems. Firstly you have to control the feral scum we currently have running riot and secondly you have to "educate", for want of a better word, that same feral scum not to propogate another generation of similar low-life. Tricky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RC-Drift.com Posted August 31, 2007 Share Posted August 31, 2007 I think a lot of opinion on here is exactly right in that there are two problems. Firstly you have to control the feral scum we currently have running riot and secondly you have to "educate", for want of a better word, that same feral scum not to propogate another generation of similar low-life. Tricky. More like impossible Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cret Posted August 31, 2007 Share Posted August 31, 2007 Can't we just let parents discipline their offspring, like what they used to - without said offspring threatening to "ring childline" ? I'm not talking about kicking the living shit out of kids but a firm hand never did me any harm... Ditto. And Amen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Godfather of Manx House Posted August 31, 2007 Share Posted August 31, 2007 But of course, the victim wasn't in a gang, that would be inconceivable... Bet you feel a bit of a cunt now, eh ?... ...GOMH*... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3v0 Posted September 4, 2007 Share Posted September 4, 2007 But of course, the victim wasn't in a gang, that would be inconceivable... Bet you feel a bit of a cunt now, eh ?... ...GOMH*... Honestly? Not really, it's disgraceful that he was shot and killed, but why should I feel like a cunt? I made an error and assumed that it was another of the many gang shootings that have been so widely reported recently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Godfather of Manx House Posted September 4, 2007 Share Posted September 4, 2007 Maybe you'll be a little less quick to make wild assumptions on such sensitive issues in future ? That lad was as far removed from gang culture as is possible. How do you feel a relative would feel were they to read your "assumption" ?... ...GOMH*... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3v0 Posted September 4, 2007 Share Posted September 4, 2007 Maybe you'll be a little less quick to make wild assumptions on such sensitive issues in future ? That lad was as far removed from gang culture as is possible. How do you feel a relative would feel were they to read your "assumption" ?... ...GOMH*... Maybe I will Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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