ai_Droid Posted November 16, 2007 Share Posted November 16, 2007 Well I take my tin hat off to the guy for having the courage to take this issue on. He speaks for a lot of us. The matter needs to be thoroughly sorted out in a debate in Tynwald. If they don't bother to do this and try and impose the cards then we definately need a petition. Feh, I still don't get the jump from thumprint scanners to national ID cards... 1. The 'fine' for not attending an interview to be 'ID'd is £1000! 2. The Government intend to make money by then selling you personal data to commercial organisations! 1. If you make something compulsary, you usually have a fine. How else are you going to enforce it? 2. This is rot. It's not about making money, it's about charging a fee to pay for the service. The government does this already in lots of ways, Police checks, planning searches, company searches, whatever. This isn't new at all, it's just something the tin hatters have grasped onto in a feeble attempt to raise rabble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dodger Posted November 16, 2007 Share Posted November 16, 2007 Well I take my tin hat off to the guy for having the courage to take this issue on. He speaks for a lot of us. The matter needs to be thoroughly sorted out in a debate in Tynwald. If they don't bother to do this and try and impose the cards then we definately need a petition. Feh, I still don't get the jump from thumprint scanners to national ID cards... 1. The 'fine' for not attending an interview to be 'ID'd is £1000! 2. The Government intend to make money by then selling you personal data to commercial organisations! 1. If you make something compulsary, you usually have a fine. How else are you going to enforce it? 2. This is rot. It's not about making money, it's about charging a fee to pay for the service. The government does this already in lots of ways, Police checks, planning searches, company searches, whatever. This isn't new at all, it's just something the tin hatters have grasped onto in a feeble attempt to raise rabble. When quoting someone you shouldn't amend their words! I tried to keep it as a seperate topic, speak to the moderators! Glad to see you are happy to be forced to give your fingerprints, will you be happy to give iris scans? DNA? At what stage is it too far? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cronky Posted November 16, 2007 Share Posted November 16, 2007 ai_Droid: Do you have an interest in IOM Biometric Zolutions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ai_Droid Posted November 16, 2007 Share Posted November 16, 2007 ai_Droid:Do you have an interest in IOM Biometric Zolutions? Lol, no. Is it so unbelievable that people aren't living in fear of simple technolgy, they have to have a vested interest? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WTF Posted November 17, 2007 Share Posted November 17, 2007 Glad to see you are happy to be forced to give your fingerprints, will you be happy to give iris scans? DNA? At what stage is it too far? i don't care what it takes, aslong long as only I can be me. and no scrote can claim to be me or anyone else they're not, even an invented alias. what 'good' reason can you have for wanting to claim to be someone else and not yourself?? it's not about catching out law abiding citizens and knowing what they had for breakfast. it's about trying to cut out fraud, deception and identity theft. without better ID that is going to be very difficult indeed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cronky Posted November 17, 2007 Share Posted November 17, 2007 only I can be me. and no scrote can claim to be me Quite so. You own your identity - not the UK Government. If I need to prove who I am I can do so from a variety of sources. Utility bill, signature, ask someone who knows me (my Mum!) passport, driving licence and any combination of these that I choose. However, I don't have to possess any of these documents. Furthermore, having my identity described in these unconnected ways is far safer. The most hassle I ever had was digging out a utility bill to open a bank account. If the UK gets it's way then all of your personal information will be in one place - the National Identity Register. They will own the ID card which they can cancel at any time - just like a credit card agency does. As they are planning that you use the ID card for many aspects of you life withdrawal of the card would restrict your freedom very quickly. The point about fingerprints is that you can derive a unique number from the print - akin to a National Insurance number. This would be a number for life (or until the ID card is renewed) and I personally want that information kept to myself - along with my DNA. Some people are not bothered about privacy issues but some people are. I don't expect anyone to demand personal, biological information from me - not least the UK Government. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
La_Dolce_Vita Posted November 19, 2007 Share Posted November 19, 2007 I completely agree. What about civil disobedience? It worked with the Poll Tax. If people don't want the cards then why not resist getting one and tell others to do the same if they don't one? Really, it is up to you, isn't it? They're YOUR details, you wouldn't hand them over to anyone else willingly unless you knew exactly why you are handing over that information, how it is to be used, and how secure that information is. The fact that the government wants to make it compulsory and make you pay for it is clearly a breach of any person's freedoms. And then they would be quite happy to fine you £1000 for not obeying your government.his The problem isn't simply about the fear of new technology, but why that technology is in place and what it will be used for. The fear comes from being given weak arguments as to why we should have ID cards and then being compelled to acquire them. The fear comes from not having assurances as to how that information is to be used. The fear comes from handing over information to the state, which should not be implicitly trusted. I also object to the inhuman and conformist nature of the ID cards where they would be compulsory for access to all public services. I say that more on the principle that if someone is sick it shouldn't matter who they are, if they want education it shouldn't matter who they are, etc. I know that isn't the system we live in but I wouldn't want to condone the existing system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dodger Posted November 19, 2007 Share Posted November 19, 2007 Here is another link where you can find out about ID cards http://www.justice.org.uk/images/pdfs/idcardcc.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ai_Droid Posted November 19, 2007 Share Posted November 19, 2007 And yet the government have been happy collecting biometrics on driving licenses for years and you tin hatters have barely squeaked. Remind me again what this has to do with kids using thumbprints to borrow books? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ai_Droid Posted November 19, 2007 Share Posted November 19, 2007 AI, I have just finished reading your side of things on the other topic page! Are you part of Biometric Zolutions, a new company set up on the island to market this software......... Heh another bizzare bias accusation. This is fairly typical of your tin hat conspiracy nutter, it shows your ability to reach a conclusion with very few facts. No, I have no professional or commercial interest in biometrics. Is that clear enough? Answering your questions1/ I have to send my children to school it is a legal requirement, unless I do home schooling! I have reported the school for health and safety violations as well, I do the best I can to keep my children happy, safe and to get a good education. There is no need for thumbprint scanning, it isn't a secure area, no hazardous substances etc (Supposedly) Therefore the use of thumbprint scanning has to be by consent freely given and not assumed! Aren't you the one that complained the school was being too vigilant on health and safety? You didn't actually answer question. Why do you trust the school with your kids safety and not their thumbprint? It's quite a simple question. 2/ It is the level of information that could be linked that is the issue and passed around electronically, the unique number that is generated will also be the same unique number generated on another computer using the same software. Name and address will not be linked to other details by other data controllers, it is the build up of a personal database that is the issue for me. We are also telling our children not to give out their contact details online, but we are saying it is ok to scan a thumb, what if that scan can then be linked by the same software, they can then identify you immediately. That's pretty much all either incorrect, or not related to thumbprinting. The level of information can be linked to the childs record, thumbprinting or not. Why is it an issue specifically when thumbprints are included? The schools collecting a wealth of data about your child, why does your tin hat buzz when fingerprints are added? This bullshit about the 'unique number being the same', you dont' understand the concept of hashes, clearly. I suggest you read up, and come back, you look like an idiot otherwise. 3/ I have stated this on the other topic site, the other biometric data that is stored, pictures, signatures etc. What would everyone feel if the picture when scanned in was transferred into a unique number that would identify you in another database and link instantly into your biography. A photograph can be used in exactly the same way as a thumbprint, there's no difference. The person looking to identify you would need a picture, same with the fingerprint, but, it isn't as the picture would need to be of a good quality and a close up for positive id, the thumbprint is left everywhere! as all our fingerprints are! They could be collected from a pub and scanned in and positive id obtained and linked into personal details and this could be enough to set up a bogus identity that would then link your prints into whatever they were doing and you would have to prove you were not there! Yes, you've hit the nail on the head. Thumbprinting is very weak security. Which is exactly the reason why their use as identification is harmless. It'll only ever be used for low risk stuff like loaning library books, for everything else it'll be some kind of two factor. Think of a thumb print as your username, not your password. For someone so noisy on this subject, you really are quite ignorant about the technology. 4/ You are heavily bias the other way, I have given the address to two websites, one is by the UK government (or information from the government) and the other is done by parents, people can make up their own minds, it is still a democracy....... I'm not bias at all. Check your links again, you're wrong, neither is government. People can make up their own mines, and that's exactly what I'm advocating. It's hard to do so with people like you misinforming and scaremongering however. 5/ The data protection act is there to protect misuse of data and ensure that data electronically stored is done so to guidelines, hence the reason for data controllers. The school and the other schools had not complied with the Act! It isn't a matter of it's only for library books, oh and registration (King Bills) Your wrong again. The act merely says they have to have the systems registered. What part of the act aren't they complying with, you tell me. 6/ It is the start of the conditioning, where people get used to giving their information via a thumbprint, the next thing in 10 years could well be DNA at birth. Unfortunately with the ID cards this act which will affect the crown dependancies, as we usually follow their legislation, is looking to come in in 2010! The UK government are then looking to get the costs of this system covered by SELLING the data!!!!!!! 5.6 BILLION is this good use of taxpayers money? Is this in the best interest of the people? Will the benefits outweigh the loss of civil liberty?! Wrong, wrong, wrong. Your kids give the school money, is this conditioning them for fraud later in life? The connection simply isn't there. Selling is also bollocks, that's the fee to look up, just like any other government search. Someone like you in public office should know exactly how that works. 7/ Same as 6, though my details are freely available, stick my name in google and you will get to find out all about me, I gave up my data (right to privacy) to stand for election and once it is out there it can't be taken back. This is what concerns me about the potential loss of data and that there are no safeguards to inform people if their data has been lost/stolen! You may be a data controller like I am, I am registered and have to follow certain rules, though there is no requirement to inform if data has been lost or stolen......... But as I said at the top you're trusting the school with far more sensitive data than a god damn thumbprint. Why's it taken this to send you twitching to your typewriter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dodger Posted November 19, 2007 Share Posted November 19, 2007 And yet the government have been happy collecting biometrics on driving licenses for years and you tin hatters have barely squeaked. Remind me again what this has to do with kids using thumbprints to borrow books? At the risk of repeating myself.......The moderator linked the two in...... Pictures are not transferred into unique codes and used to identify you, the issue is that there is going to be a national register where all of your data will be held (and sold to commercial organisations to pay for it!) There are those who can see the potential misuse and loss of privacy that goes along with this, unfortunately you don't seem to be able to. The link is also simple, it is conditioning of the children to give up their details from an early age (5!) and then telling them to keep them private when going online. When will we get to the stage that you log onto the school computer with your thumbprint? Once you have acceptance of thumbprinting then a Biometric id card will be a little thing. What price is freedom?! What about free speech, they would be able to link alias's with the real person and potentially have you labeled a troublemaker and "background checked" check out the previous post with the link and you will see that even in America they have said no! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ai_Droid Posted November 19, 2007 Share Posted November 19, 2007 Pictures are not transferred into unique codes and used to identify you How do you know? What your talking about is how the software internally interprets the fingerprint. The software can interpret a face in similar ways. , the issue is that there is going to be a national register where all of your data will be held (and sold to commercial organisations to pay for it!) There are those who can see the potential misuse and loss of privacy that goes along with this, unfortunately you don't seem to be able to. Your misinforming there. The ability for the government to perform lookups for 3rd parties on the proposed database may be sold for a fee. That's a world of difference from what you say. Either way, that's a different debate. The government already does this with your other data, so why are you suddenly excited when it comes to including biometric data? The link is also simple, it is conditioning of the children to give up their details from an early age (5!) and then telling them to keep them private when going online. When will we get to the stage that you log onto the school computer with your thumbprint? Once you have acceptance of thumbprinting then a Biometric id card will be a little thing. What price is freedom?! What about free speech, they would be able to link alias's with the real person and potentially have you labeled a troublemaker and "background checked" It's quite scary that you think this way. Where's your documented evidence for this link, or is this simply something you've made up in your paranoid little mind? check out the previous post with the link and you will see that even in America they have said no! Yes, America, that bastion of rational thinking.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ans Posted November 19, 2007 Share Posted November 19, 2007 You really, really need to go away and read some unbiased sources of information about the technology involved in this. Your rampant ignorance of the very basic details of what is involved is distracting anyone from any salient points you might actually have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Voice of Reason Posted November 19, 2007 Share Posted November 19, 2007 Petition up to 10 names now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ans Posted November 19, 2007 Share Posted November 19, 2007 I didn't think they'd get double figures. Well done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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