Biometric Fingerprinting - Pag Talk

[Cambon]

Your signature is a biometric, I thought you were against such things?

 

No. I am not against biometrics and I would willingly get an ID card with an iris scan. That identifies me more conclusively than fingerprints which actually change all the time.

 

It is compulary fingerprinting I am against. As you have said earlier in this thread, you leave your fingerprints everywhere. Once fingerprints are centalised, as soon as a crime takes place, anyone who's finger prints are found in or near the crime scene will be a suspect. It then becomes a very fine line between "innocent until proven guilty" and "guilty until proven inocent"!

[ai_Droid]

The reference is in a Regulation of the European Parliament which describes the harmonisation of fingerprint standards for passports for chidren aged six years and over.

 

Fingerprints for everyone with a passport. Everyone with a passport isn't the same as everyone, is it? More misinformation from the fear merchant.

 

Also worth noting that the UK and Ireland have opted out of the EU Passport specification.

 

But my original points stand, biometrics have been on passports for donkeys years in the form of a signature and photograph. A bunch of biometrics are taken every time you travel, including a fresh image of your face.

 

You just get the jibbers when fingerprints are mentioned. It's an irrational fear based on the use of fingerprints in criminal investigations. It doesn't make any sense at all in isolation.

 

By all means, bleat about the invasive nature of tracking and logging, but this obsession with fingerprinting is just foolish.

[Dodger]

The reference is in a Regulation of the European Parliament which describes the harmonisation of fingerprint standards for passports for chidren aged six years and over.

 

Fingerprints for everyone with a passport. Everyone with a passport isn't the same as everyone, is it? More misinformation from the fear merchant.

 

Also worth noting that the UK and Ireland have opted out of the EU Passport specification.

 

But my original points stand, biometrics have been on passports for donkeys years in the form of a signature and photograph. A bunch of biometrics are taken every time you travel, including a fresh image of your face.

 

You just get the jibbers when fingerprints are mentioned. It's an irrational fear based on the use of fingerprints in criminal investigations. It doesn't make any sense at all in isolation.

 

By all means, bleat about the invasive nature of tracking and logging, but this obsession with fingerprinting is just foolish.

 

Passports - anyone who travels needs to have a passport?! Therefore if a 6 year old wants to go on holiday they need to give their fingerprints to be able to get a passport! I don't see that as misinformation.

 

Why do you need fingerprints on your passport? will you be asked to have all your fingers scanned to be able to travel? Why if signature and picture have worked so far, do we need a third means of identification?

[slinkydevil]

Why if signature and picture have worked so far, do we need a third means of identification?

 

They haven't worked so far. Fake/stolen passports are very easy to get. Did you ever watch:

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6169678.stm

[Cronky]

Also worth noting that the UK and Ireland have opted out of the EU Passport specification.

 

The Identity and Passport Service Strategic Action Plan contains the following in the Executive Summary:

 

We are also committed to meeting European and

worldwide initiatives to make passports ever more

secure, including the use of fingerprint biometrics.

The timing of these changes will depend on

balancing a number of factors, including costs, risk,

the outcome of pilots and development across the EU

and internationally.

[Cambon]

Why if signature and picture have worked so far, do we need a third means of identification?

 

They haven't worked so far. Fake/stolen passports are very easy to get. Did you ever watch:

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6169678.stm

 

 

 

 

Yes, but that is where an iris scan is much better.

 

A know someone who is a British Airways stewardess who mainly travels long haul. She has a newish biometric passport and at the end of a long haul flight (particularly to the US) she almost always has a problem with immigration, she has even been refused entry (to the US) and sent back to her port of departure on the next flight (at BA's cost). This is because at the end of a long haul flight her hands are very dry and basically the fingerprints don't match.

 

If/when all passports are biometric, is this the sort of treatment we can all expect?

[ai_Droid]

Passports - anyone who travels needs to have a passport?! Therefore if a 6 year old wants to go on holiday they need to give their fingerprints to be able to get a passport! I don't see that as misinformation.

 

But not everyone travels. I don't have a passport personally, I holiday in the UK and don't travel for business. So 'everyone over six will be fingerprinted' is alarmist and incorrect.

 

Why do you need fingerprints on your passport? will you be asked to have all your fingers scanned to be able to travel? Why if signature and picture have worked so far, do we need a third means of identification?

 

They haven't worked well, passport fraud is rife. I'll ask the question again, why is photo and signature biometrics ok with you and fingerprinting isn't?

[ai_Droid]

This is because at the end of a long haul flight her hands are very dry and basically the fingerprints don't match.

 

I'm kind of with you here, I don't rate fingerprinting for serious/important use like this, which is why I think it's perfect for things like school library systems.

[Dodger]

Passports - anyone who travels needs to have a passport?! Therefore if a 6 year old wants to go on holiday they need to give their fingerprints to be able to get a passport! I don't see that as misinformation.

 

But not everyone travels. I don't have a passport personally, I holiday in the UK and don't travel for business. So 'everyone over six will be fingerprinted' is alarmist and incorrect.

 

Why do you need fingerprints on your passport? will you be asked to have all your fingers scanned to be able to travel? Why if signature and picture have worked so far, do we need a third means of identification?

 

They haven't worked well, passport fraud is rife. I'll ask the question again, why is photo and signature biometrics ok with you and fingerprinting isn't?

 

It is quite impressive that you have never been further than the UK?! I worked for an airline and travelled extensively! I have also had to travel for business into Europe. I have never had a problem with standing on the line and having my picture taken etc This is checked against a database for criminals/terrorists and you are then checked at the gate to make certain you are still the same person as in the picture. I don't agree that there is a need for me to give my fingerprints to be positively identified!

 

Fingerprints can also be copied,as can iris scans, if someone wants to steal your identity for their own reasons they can do and it will be more difficult to prove your innocence......if it is for fraud or worse! We are heading to a stage where we are guilty and need to prove our innocence and I don't agree with it!

[ai_Droid]

It is quite impressive that you have never been further than the UK?!

 

I have in the past, just haven't in the last ten years so have let my passport lapse. I'm a bit of a greenie, so I holiday nearby and don't take long haul flights.

 

I worked for an airline and travelled extensively! I have also had to travel for business into Europe. I have never had a problem with standing on the line and having my picture taken etc This is checked against a database for criminals/terrorists and you are then checked at the gate to make certain you are still the same person as in the picture. I don't agree that there is a need for me to give my fingerprints to be positively identified!

 

Fine, but why? What's the difference between your mugshot and your fingerprint? Why is one acceptable and the other isn't?

 

Fingerprints can also be copied,as can iris scans, if someone wants to steal your identity for their own reasons they can do and it will be more difficult to prove your innocence......if it is for fraud or worse! We are heading to a stage where we are guilty and need to prove our innocence and I don't agree with it!

 

As can photograhps, which are far more useful as identify fraud. That's how scammers gain access to bank accounts, signature, photo ID, utility bills, bank account numbers. Your average Nigerian aint interested in your fingerprints. Why do you object specifically to fingerprints?

[Dodger]

This is because at the end of a long haul flight her hands are very dry and basically the fingerprints don't match.

 

I'm kind of with you here, I don't rate fingerprinting for serious/important use like this, which is why I think it's perfect for things like school library systems.

 

But further up the string you were arguing the case for fingerprints on passports, which is it?

 

There is no need for thumbprint scanners for use in primary schools! It is only a means to get them used to the technology in my bias opinion. Passports are looking to carry them, national id cards are looking to carry them, they will become the norm as will the technology to clone them.

[Cronky]

Tynwald Court - 20 November 2007

 

 

Biometric scanning; fingerprinting of children

 

Government policy

 

The Hon. Member for Garff (Mr Speaker) to ask the Chief Minister:

 

(1) What is the Government’s policy on the biometric scanning and data capture of the personal

details of citizens in the Isle of Man; and

 

(2) does the policy include criteria for the fingerprinting of children?

 

 

Answer: Apart from information relating to passports, Government does not have a policy relating to

the biometric scanning and data capture of the personal details of citizens in the Isle of Man. However I

have now been advised that three schools have been operating a new library system which involved the

scanning of children’s thumb prints. I have spoken with the Minister of Education who has requested the

immediate suspension of all such systems pending an urgent review and policy determination by the

Department.

 

I am grateful to the Hon. Member for having brought this matter to my attention.

[Ringwraith]

Tynwald Court - 20 November 2007

Biometric scanning; fingerprinting of children

 

Government policy...........I have spoken with the Minister of Education who has requested the

immediate suspension of all such systems pending an urgent review and policy determination by the

Department.

 

I am grateful to the Hon. Member for having brought this matter to my attention.

 

Ha Ha Ha, GOOD!

 

Poor old Vested Interest Droid, never mind.

[ai_Droid]

Such a display of ignorance only underlines my point, sadly. Hopefully an investigation will show it up to be harmless.

 

Vested interest? Nutter.

[Dodger]

Such a display of ignorance only underlines my point, sadly. Hopefully an investigation will show it up to be harmless.

 

Vested interest? Nutter.

 

The data use has been suspended the collected data hasn't been destroyed! It will be interesting to see what our MHK's actually think of the proposals.