Biometric Fingerprinting - Pag Talk

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The information held will basically be the same wether they register with a swipe card or biometrically. After that what is important is how they use it. Will SWOT teams be sent in if you read too many noddy books? Is there a secret code in the order you read Thomas the Tank engine book?

 

That applies to all information held whether in paper or electronic form. The only difference is that in data form it can be interogated much more easily.

 

To me the concern is not whether they rely on biometrics or old physical forms to identift me but what information is held and how it is used. But I accept the risks unlike many of the luddites on the board who presumably have no bank accounts, debit or debit cards, mobile telephones etc etc as "no body knows what use governments ,hackers,etc will use this information for,the american government military"

 

 

 

click on to leave them kids alone .com ,read the comments about the way governments have brought this in . I think this is being brought in to ensure todays kids will all be on a

database . my childs school wants to bring this in and the way they want to do it is right in line with uk practice ,give little or no warning say they have worked very hard ,make

out no other parents are worried about it .my wife and I have refused to let our child be scanned and will now have a swipe card .the implications of this are very far reaching

use it for recuiting school kids .this could be the thin edge of a

very thick wedge

[Pragmatopian]

Will SWOT teams be sent in if you read too many noddy books?

 

Well, US law enforcement are now able to access people's library records, presumably to scour them for titles like

 

"Bomb-making for dummies"

"Germ warfare on a shoestring"

"C4: your path to a virgin-packed afterlife"

[ai_Droid]

click on to leave them kids alone .com ,read the comments about the way governments have brought this in . I think this is being brought in to ensure todays kids will all be on a

database . my childs school wants to bring this in and the way they want to do it is right in line with uk practice ,give little or no warning say they have worked very hard ,make

out no other parents are worried about it .my wife and I have refused to let our child be scanned and will now have a swipe card .the implications of this are very far reaching

no body knows what use governments ,hackers,etc will use this information for,the american government military use it for recuiting school kids .this could be the thin edge of a

very thick wedge

 

 

That site you link is frequently wrong. Fingerprints are simply too easy to rip off to be used in the fashion that sites talking about. You'll never authenticate your bank details with current methods. At best, a thumb print would form part of some two factor authentication, and be combined with a pin or some other method of authentication.

 

leavethemkidsalone.com says:

 

The 'harmless' number or algorithm stored by these systems is in fact a fingerprint template, the unchanging lifelong key to a child's identity.

 

So's his face, his signature, his voice pattern. All of which are reguarly collected biometrics without a wimper from the tin hatters.

 

When you pull out the actual objections on that site, it boils down to;

 

1) The fingerprints are encrypted now, but that may be cracked some time in the future

2) If they are cracked, haxors will steal your life

 

Well that's both arse. If one is true, the other wont be possible. Simple as that.

 

 

As I've said already in this thread, most of your alarmish rot is Daily Mail style ignorance.

[Chinahand]

The information held will basically be the same wether they register with a swipe card or biometrically. After that what is important is how they use it. ... That applies to all information held whether in paper or electronic form. The only difference is that in data form it can be interogated much more easily.

 

To me the concern is not whether they rely on biometrics or old physical forms to identift me but what information is held and how it is used. But I accept the risks unlike many of the luddites on the board who presumably have no bank accounts, debit or debit cards, mobile telephones etc etc as "no body knows what use governments ,hackers,etc will use this information for,the american government military"

 

The issue is that the information will be different, because the data base will hold a key which is being made into the key for all types of digital communication - your unique biometric code. If someone stole my library card they they've got my library card number, but in a few years time if someone steals the digital code for your biometric data from the library, then they may be able to use that information to hack into highly lucrative, secure and confidential information.

[ai_Droid]

The issue is that the information will be different, because the data base will hold a key which is being made into the key for all types of digital communication - your unique biometric code. If someone stole my library card they they've got my library card number, but in a few years time if someone steals the digital code for your biometric data from the library, then they may be able to use that information to hack into highly lucrative, secure and confidential information.

 

You think someones going to secure highly lucrative secure and confidential information with a biometric that could be hacked so easily? Thumb printing has been around for a while, why do you recon the banks don't use it now? Thumb printing will only go as far as identifying you, not authenticating you. Same as your login name, but not your password. Banks are moving more towards two factor authentication anyway. The next thing you'll have is a keyfob from your bank with a changing password that goes alongside your pin.

 

You used to be one of the more intelligent posters me old china, you're letting yourself down here.

[Albert Tatlock]

So's his face, his signature, his voice pattern. All of which are reguarly collected biometrics without a wimper from the tin hatters.

As usual, you are choosing to miss the main points of this thread by not addressing peoples issues of interconnectivity, security and control of data. No one has a problem with a need to be properly identified, we all have to be identified to someone - but it's the 'who, what, why, where, when and how' of that data and how it could be used, or potentially misused - which you continually ignore in an effort to prove someone wrong on one minor point.

 

If you want to choose insults over intellect - then I'd rather have a tin hat - than no brain.

 

[Chinahand]

So's his face, his signature, his voice pattern. All of which are reguarly collected biometrics without a wimper from the tin hatters.

Please put up on this site a PDF containing your signature, mothers maiden name, DOB, POB and address. [note: Tynwald pretty much does this for every single MHK - terrifying - I assume no one from Nigeria has realized this yet!]

 

In a few years time all the same information will be contained in a 20 or so digit number - your biometric signature. You currently do not need to provide all of the above to the library, the school canteen etc.

 

People having this number can abuse it. Saying it'll only ever be accessed by an unhackable reader guaranteeing that the person swiping their finger is always a unique individual seems incredibly, niavelly optimistic.

 

Edited to add "currently"

[ai_Droid]

As usual, you are choosing to miss the main points of this thread by not addressing peoples issues of interconnectivity, security and control of data. No one has a problem with a need to be properly identified, we all have to be identified to someone - but it's the 'who, what, why, where, when and how' of that data and how it could be used, or potentially misused - which you continually ignore in an effort to prove someone wrong on one minor point.

If you want to choose insults over intellect - then I'd rather have a tin hat - than no brain.

 

That's been addressed multiple times. I'm not ignoring it, but I don't see it as relevant to the discussion. We're talking about thumprinting as identity, the underlying data, as as been pointed out repeatedly, is there either way and already pointing at you. If you authenticate with a swipe card, the data is the same.

 

Anytime you use your credit card, store points card or mobile phone, biometrics are taken and databased and identified as you. Why does it take thumbprinting to create daily mail headlines?

 

You can avoid this and go back to using cash and sending people letters to communicate. Do you want to?

[ai_Droid]

Please put up on this site a PDF containing your signature, mothers maiden name, DOB, POB and address. [note: Tynwald pretty much does this for every single MHK - terrifying - I assume no one from Nigeria has realized this yet!]

 

In a few years time all the same information will be contained in a 20 or so digit number - your biometric signature. You do not need to provide all of the above to the library, the school canteen etc.

 

People having this number can abuse it. Saying it'll only ever be accessed by an unhackable reader guaranteeing that the person swiping their finger is always a unique individual seems incredibly, niavelly optimistic.

 

You keep verging off into some terrifying haxor driven future. We're talking about a thumbprint china, the thing you scatter about all day long.

 

I'll say it again, if a single biometric signature is ever adopted as a foolproof method of identification AND authentication, then it'll be secure. Thumbprints aren't secure enough, and will never be used singularly to strongy authenticate anyone. They're fine for getting library books out though, which is what we're talking about here.

 

Your example above is a good reason why better identifying individuals is important, a case FOR biometrics, not against.

[Albert Tatlock]

As usual, you are choosing to miss the main points of this thread by not addressing peoples issues of interconnectivity, security and control of data. No one has a problem with a need to be properly identified, we all have to be identified to someone - but it's the 'who, what, why, where, when and how' of that data and how it could be used, or potentially misused - which you continually ignore in an effort to prove someone wrong on one minor point.

If you want to choose insults over intellect - then I'd rather have a tin hat - than no brain.

That's been addressed multiple times. I'm not ignoring it, but I don't see it as relevant to the discussion.

"To highlight the whole question of the undermining of civil liberties P A G has organised a screening of the compelling film “ TAKING LIBERTIES” which exposes the shocking

truth about the erosion of civil liberties in the U K in recent years. P A G is anxious to make the Manx public aware of this potential threat to individual freedoms".

 

The discussion is far wider than that.

[ai_Droid]

"To highlight the whole question of the undermining of civil liberties P A G has organised a screening of the compelling film “ TAKING LIBERTIES” which exposes the shocking

truth about the erosion of civil liberties in the U K in recent years. P A G is anxious to make the Manx public aware of this potential threat to individual freedoms".

 

The discussion is far wider than that.

 

Well, I addressed that point either way. I don't want to use cash, I want to use a credit card. So my freedom and liberties are all washed away and my transaction is fully traceable. Do I care? No.

 

I walk down the prom, and I'm on camera. If someone punches the living shite out of me, they'll get done for it. Do I care that I'm filmed? No.

 

I get out a library book and I don't need to worry about a card, because my fingerprint is good enough for that low risk transaction. If the library computer gets haxored, someone can have my fingerprint, know its me, and know what books I got out. Do I care? No. I'm safe in the knowledge that nothing important will ever be secured against such weak authentication.

 

What I do care about is if this increasing mountain of data surrounding me are weakly secured and my identity is hard to prove, any technology that identifies me, the law abiding citizen, is just fine by me, thanks.

[Chinahand]

We're talking about a thumbprint china, the thing you scatter about all day long.

 

I'll say it again, if a single biometric signature is ever adopted as a foolproof method of identification AND authentication, then it'll be secure. Thumbprints aren't secure enough, and will never be used singularly to strongy authenticate anyone. They're fine for getting library books out though, which is what we're talking about here.

 

Your example above is a good reason why better identifying individuals is important, a case FOR biometrics, not against.

 

At the moment my thumbprint is not associated with my intimate personal data, so I am perfectly happy to scatter it about all day long - actually not totally true as I had to hand over my fingerprints to the FBI for a security check a few years ago - but anyway!

 

As you say - if it is secure I have little problem - but that is the crux of the matter!

 

Someone made a post saying it would be very very helpful to be able to totally, without risk of fraud etc identify people. That is in some ways true, but I post on Chinese web sites etc and I know of many people who are doing nothing wrong but whose liberty depends upon their privacy - go and take a trip to Beijing walk into an internet cafe and start posting about the setting up of a liberal social democratic party dedicated to the rule of law and humanitarian principles - go on I dare you.

 

I think there needs to be a balance between ensuring that people are correctly identified as being who they say they are AND the right to privacy. Saying "I do nothing wrong its fine for me to be tracked, identified and logged every day of my life and having that information available to whoever" shows a great optimism in society. I do not have that optimism.

[WTF]

IF thumbprints are not a reliable source of identity? why can people be convicted on finger prints ( cos they're unique if you have them ) ?? convictions are given on just partial prints and thumb prints but it all comes under finger prints?

[ai_Droid]

IF thumbprints are not a reliable source of identity? why can people be convicted on finger prints ( cos they're unique if you have them ) ?? convictions are given on just partial prints and thumb prints but it all comes under finger prints?

 

Slightly different issue, but automatic fingerprint machines are a lot easier to fool than police forensics experts. Although fingerprints for solving crimes has come under the spotlight a fair bit recently as a less than infallable method of identification.

[Pragmatopian]

The issue is that the information will be different, because the data base will hold a key which is being made into the key for all types of digital communication - your unique biometric code. If someone stole my library card they they've got my library card number, but in a few years time if someone steals the digital code for your biometric data from the library, then they may be able to use that information to hack into highly lucrative, secure and confidential information.

 

The challenge of using biometric identification to gain access to sensitive resources (money, property or information) lies in ensuring that the identification is harvested each time from the individual through an input device. This is by no means an insurmountable challenge.