Hoofhearted Posted November 15, 2007 Share Posted November 15, 2007 I have it on very good authority that a biometric retina scanner is already installed in the passport office in Douglas & has been since last year - this might answer Roger Gimberts question posed today on Manx Radio. _________________________________________________________________ Whilst it might be not PC to harken backwards - maybe that is where we should take our advice - My personal view on the subject is this - If Adolf Hitler had access to the kind of identity data which is being proposed now, then no Jew would have survived WW2. Whether you agree with the principle or not - it all depends on who holds that data and what they want to use it for - maybe we are all happy that Gordon Brown has they key to No10 but what if Osama Bin Laden or some other Muslem fundamentalist leader were (unthinkable though it might seem) to become "the boss", would we then want to hide our capitalist / Christian past - well, it wouldn't be possible if an ID card / biometric scanning system comes into play ? Lets just remember that less than 70 years ago, the Jews who did escape the Nazi regime and thereby STAYED ALIVE did so by hiding/disguising their true identity - can you really be certain that you will never have a need to do that ? It is very cosy to think that all is well in the world and the only use for biometric data will be to keep us safe - but that may not be the case, we need to consider how it MIGHT be used AGAINST us at some point in the future - the world is becoming a very volatile place.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dodger Posted November 16, 2007 Share Posted November 16, 2007 I am new to Manx Forums, but feel that members of this community need to have their chance to have a say over the use of Biometric identity cards, children as young as 5 are being conditioned to give their thumb prints to access the school library, needless to say I am against it, especially for minors! The UK Government in 2010 is looking to bring into law an ID act. I have started a petition which I will present to the Chief Minster or include in the Redress of Grievence on Tynwald day. The Petition will be left until the End of May 2008. This letter was sent to IOM Newspapers to answer a letter from another person. Biometric_fingerprinting_letter.doc These questions need to be answered:- 1/How this will affect the Isle of Man? 2/Where will the data be stored? 3/How will it be protected? 4/The UK Government are looking to sell their data to cover the 5.6 Billion cost of doing the Biometric ID card! How would we fund ours, if we have a stand alone system? 5/Do we need a biometric identity card in the Isle of Man? 6/What is wrong with the present system? 7/Why have we started to take biometric identifiers from primary school children without debate over whether this should be done or not? 8/We expect our children to not give out personal details over the internet, but provide all their details to use a School library or School registration, isn’t this conflicting? 9/At what age should this technology be started at if it is used at all? I have started a online petition, if you would like to sign it please follow the link http://www.petitiononline.com/bic001/petition.html We, the undersigned, would like the Isle of Man Government to discuss in Tynwald, that the UK Government in 2010 is looking to bring into law an ID act. We would like a Tynwald Select Committee to review the UK Act and report back to Tynwald, where it would be further debated (not just received!) and then put to a referendum, of the people of the Isle of Man, after full and meaningful consultation over the possibility of Biometric identity cards being used or not. We would also like the use of Biometric fingerprinting to be stopped in schools, the computer hard drives destroyed, until after the people have had the Referendum. Sincerely, The Undersigned http://www.petitiononline.com/bic001/petition.html letter.doc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
feelslikeitshould Posted November 16, 2007 Share Posted November 16, 2007 We've discussed it, have a read. http://www.manxforums.com/forums/index.php...c=20731&hl= Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dodger Posted November 16, 2007 Share Posted November 16, 2007 I was the parent who looked into it and I am also the person who will take a redress of Grievence to Tynwald. The petition is new, only started it today! The other details that are concerning me is that the ID card data will be sold by the UK Government to pay for theirs! If anyone has any questions about any part of the discussion or about pag and their response please let me know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ai_Droid Posted November 16, 2007 Share Posted November 16, 2007 I was the parent who looked into it and I am also the person who will take a redress of Grievence to Tynwald. The petition is new, only started it today! The other details that are concerning me is that the ID card data will be sold by the UK Government to pay for theirs! If anyone has any questions about any part of the discussion or about pag and their response please let me know. My question: Does that tin foil hat you wear make your ears itch? I've got some questions for you: - why do you entrust the school with the safety of your child, but not the safety of their fingerprints? - why is using a thumbprint scanner conditioning for biometrics, when giving the school your name and address not conditioning for identity theft? - why is the use of a thumbrpint biometric so much scarier for you than the other biometrics the school has been collecting for decades? - why do you refer to heavily biased and innacurate scaremongering websits like 'leavemykidsalone' as a resource for people to make up their own minds? Why do you misleadingly say EPIC is representing the uk government, it isnt? - why are you surprised the data protection officer is advocating data protection? - how do you make the connection between thumbprint scanners and ID cards? - what exactly are you scared of, what's your imagined outcome should all schools adopt a thumbprint scanner for the tracking of library books? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slinkydevil Posted November 16, 2007 Share Posted November 16, 2007 - what exactly are you scared of, what's your imagined outcome should all schools adopt a thumbprint scanner for the tracking of library books? Organised crime. You'd only need a gang to cut off 10 or so kids thumbs and then you've got free passes into the library. I reckon a team of people could fleece loads of decent books over a period of lets say, 6 months. Then that's it, those books will be gone forever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dodger Posted November 16, 2007 Share Posted November 16, 2007 I have it on very good authority that a biometric retina scanner is already installed in the passport office in Douglas & has been since last year - this might answer Roger Gimberts question posed today on Manx Radio. _________________________________________________________________ Whilst it might be not PC to harken backwards - maybe that is where we should take our advice - My personal view on the subject is this - If Adolf Hitler had access to the kind of identity data which is being proposed now, then no Jew would have survived WW2. Whether you agree with the principle or not - it all depends on who holds that data and what they want to use it for - maybe we are all happy that Gordon Brown has they key to No10 but what if Osama Bin Laden or some other Muslem fundamentalist leader were (unthinkable though it might seem) to become "the boss", would we then want to hide our capitalist / Christian past - well, it wouldn't be possible if an ID card / biometric scanning system comes into play ? Lets just remember that less than 70 years ago, the Jews who did escape the Nazi regime and thereby STAYED ALIVE did so by hiding/disguising their true identity - can you really be certain that you will never have a need to do that ? It is very cosy to think that all is well in the world and the only use for biometric data will be to keep us safe - but that may not be the case, we need to consider how it MIGHT be used AGAINST us at some point in the future - the world is becoming a very volatile place.. I am Rodger Gimbert, and I have just set up another topic (Biometric id cards) and linked to a online petition which I have also set up. Biometrics is any personal data that can be used to identify you. Your picture, voice, signature, retina etc. My original concern was having my 5 year olds right to privacy removed, the headteacher tried to impose it without consultation and the apathy vote, which contravenes Data Protection! Whereas as an adult you may choose to give your personal details, this was a school imposing a system that has implications for the rest of their lives! I believe in freedom of information and letting people make up their own minds. ai droid seems to be happy with the system, I am not! If your picture was scanned into a computer and a unique number is generated which would also be able to be generated by any other computer that uses the same software, would everyone still be happy with their pictures being used? Signatures, they can be scanned in and added to the bottom of electronic letters, they can also be copied if you haven't protected the content! I feel that having a database on each person, started on a minor item like a school library will make it that the person grows up to accept the loss of privacy, we are also telling them not to pass out their detials online, but what happens when you use a thumbprint to identify yourself to a website?! It will always be the way that information is controlled and the use it is put to that causes the concern. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ans Posted November 16, 2007 Share Posted November 16, 2007 Seeing as you've decided to cross post and cross reference, I've merged your topic into this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ai_Droid Posted November 16, 2007 Share Posted November 16, 2007 My personal view on the subject is this - If Adolf Hitler had access to the kind of identity data which is being proposed now, then no Jew would have survived WW2. I get to invoke Godwin's Law You seriously think genocide using government data is something that's likely to happen in the Isle of Man? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dodger Posted November 16, 2007 Share Posted November 16, 2007 I was the parent who looked into it and I am also the person who will take a redress of Grievence to Tynwald. The petition is new, only started it today! The other details that are concerning me is that the ID card data will be sold by the UK Government to pay for theirs! If anyone has any questions about any part of the discussion or about pag and their response please let me know. My question: Does that tin foil hat you wear make your ears itch? I've got some questions for you: - why do you entrust the school with the safety of your child, but not the safety of their fingerprints? - why is using a thumbprint scanner conditioning for biometrics, when giving the school your name and address not conditioning for identity theft? - why is the use of a thumbrpint biometric so much scarier for you than the other biometrics the school has been collecting for decades? - why do you refer to heavily biased and innacurate scaremongering websits like 'leavemykidsalone' as a resource for people to make up their own minds? Why do you misleadingly say EPIC is representing the uk government, it isnt? - why are you surprised the data protection officer is advocating data protection? - how do you make the connection between thumbprint scanners and ID cards? - what exactly are you scared of, what's your imagined outcome should all schools adopt a thumbprint scanner for the tracking of library books? AI, I have just finished reading your side of things on the other topic page! Are you part of Biometric Zolutions, a new company set up on the island to market this software......... Answering your questions 1/ I have to send my children to school it is a legal requirement, unless I do home schooling! I have reported the school for health and safety violations as well, I do the best I can to keep my children happy, safe and to get a good education. There is no need for thumbprint scanning, it isn't a secure area, no hazardous substances etc (Supposedly) Therefore the use of thumbprint scanning has to be by consent freely given and not assumed! 2/ It is the level of information that could be linked that is the issue and passed around electronically, the unique number that is generated will also be the same unique number generated on another computer using the same software. Name and address will not be linked to other details by other data controllers, it is the build up of a personal database that is the issue for me. We are also telling our children not to give out their contact details online, but we are saying it is ok to scan a thumb, what if that scan can then be linked by the same software, they can then identify you immediately. 3/ I have stated this on the other topic site, the other biometric data that is stored, pictures, signatures etc. What would everyone feel if the picture when scanned in was transferred into a unique number that would identify you in another database and link instantly into your biography. The person looking to identify you would need a picture, same with the fingerprint, but, it isn't as the picture would need to be of a good quality and a close up for positive id, the thumbprint is left everywhere! as all our fingerprints are! They could be collected from a pub and scanned in and positive id obtained and linked into personal details and this could be enough to set up a bogus identity that would then link your prints into whatever they were doing and you would have to prove you were not there! 4/ You are heavily bias the other way, I have given the address to two websites, one is by the UK government (or information from the government) and the other is done by parents, people can make up their own minds, it is still a democracy....... 5/ The data protection act is there to protect misuse of data and ensure that data electronically stored is done so to guidelines, hence the reason for data controllers. The school and the other schools had not complied with the Act! It isn't a matter of it's only for library books, oh and registration (King Bills) 6/ It is the start of the conditioning, where people get used to giving their information via a thumbprint, the next thing in 10 years could well be DNA at birth. Unfortunately with the ID cards this act which will affect the crown dependancies, as we usually follow their legislation, is looking to come in in 2010! The UK government are then looking to get the costs of this system covered by SELLING the data!!!!!!! 5.6 BILLION is this good use of taxpayers money? Is this in the best interest of the people? Will the benefits outweigh the loss of civil liberty?! 7/ Same as 6, though my details are freely available, stick my name in google and you will get to find out all about me, I gave up my data (right to privacy) to stand for election and once it is out there it can't be taken back. This is what concerns me about the potential loss of data and that there are no safeguards to inform people if their data has been lost/stolen! You may be a data controller like I am, I am registered and have to follow certain rules, though there is no requirement to inform if data has been lost or stolen......... 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Dodger Posted November 16, 2007 Share Posted November 16, 2007 Seeing as you've decided to cross post and cross reference, I've merged your topic into this one. Where is all the data I submited? Biometric fingerprinting and the ID cards are linked in that the fingerprinting started my looking into this, the petition and other comments over ID cards shouldn't have been deleted! Good to know we have freedom of speech! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Voice of Reason Posted November 16, 2007 Share Posted November 16, 2007 I'm not signing any petition. The Government will work out where I live and come and get me or they'll sell my name to the highest bidder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dodger Posted November 16, 2007 Share Posted November 16, 2007 LOL Glad to see you have a sense of humour, I wish the topic was funny. Unfortunately I get the feeling big brother is watching, moderating and censoring in all that we do...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cronky Posted November 16, 2007 Share Posted November 16, 2007 Well I take my hat off to the guy for having the courage to take this issue on. He speaks for a lot of us. The matter needs to be thoroughly sorted out in a debate in Tynwald. If they don't bother to do this and try and impose the cards then we definately need a petition. Someone else who is interested emailed me this link to an interview with Phill Booth from No2ID: http://doughty.gdbtv.com/player.php?h=1f66...1cc263d07a6daf# The whole UK attempt to impose ID cards absolutely stinks. Two things: 1. The 'fine' for not attending an interview to be 'ID'd is £1000! 2. The Government intend to make money by then selling you personal data to commercial organisations! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dodger Posted November 16, 2007 Share Posted November 16, 2007 Well I take my hat off to the guy for having the courage to take this issue on. He speaks for a lot of us. The matter needs to be thoroughly sorted out in a debate in Tynwald. If they don't bother to do this and try and impose the cards then we definately need a petition. Someone else who is interested emailed me this link to an interview with Phill Booth from No2ID: http://doughty.gdbtv.com/player.php?h=1f66...1cc263d07a6daf# The whole UK attempt to impose ID cards absolutely stinks. Two things: 1. The 'fine' for not attending an interview to be 'ID'd is £1000! 2. The Government intend to make money by then selling you personal data to commercial organisations! So much for privacy..........It becomes more worrying the more you look into it! And I have nothing left to hide! All I am trying to do is inform, engage debate and hopefully get our government to make a stand! I didn't know about the fining side, how big is the prison?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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