Steam Packet - Oft Petition

[AlexMcC]

Just out of interest, this winter, what else do people expect the SPC to possibly do?

 

I'm pretty sure in 2003, the SPC offered a daily service to Liverpool until New Years with the Lady of Mann, and I'm pretty sure it was heavily underused. As a commercial operation, I can't see how you would justify half the things wanted here; you have to use the service effectively. Yes, ok, the withdrawal of the SSC2 this winter was a massive inconvenience, and yes, the day trips have gone, but like Mark has said, those sailings wouldn't have happened anyway. I prefer a bit of reliability over constantly missed sailings, and I'd prefer to have a regular supply of food, goods and services over an opportunity to shop in Liverpool. Docking in the dock system takes quite a bit of extra time, would kill any chance of a night Heysham sailing, and I'm pretty sure there aren’t any suitable facilities readily available to operate late night sailings. The Ben was originally going to sail to Liverpool anyway, but her stern door is just too heavy for the pontoon, something that really can't be fixed!

 

The solution is a fast conventional vessel, and even if one was ordered today, it probably wouldn't be here until 2010-2011, ok, yes, then it needs ordering ASAP, and I'm sure it will be eventually. Don't forget, SSC2 is here because it was forced on the SPC as part of its original sale to Montagu, and will be here until 2011. Her charter cost is near high, and there is no way they can get out of it, as Seaco may as well be bust. There is hardly anything in the UK, which could operate a winter service to the IOM apart from Stena Caledonia, which visited during TT, but she won't be available, and most ships, which would be suitable probably, wouldn't be within regulations.

 

Ok, and if we go back to the Lady of Mann? Let's be honest, she was nearly 30, her hull was thinning out in places and she was becoming very expensive to operate and maintain effectively here. Ok again, this relates to a commercial enterprise, as the SPC is, but then again, if the company was nationalized, do you really want to pay millions in taxes every year to effectively maintain and fuel a ship that’s only purpose is to sail to Liverpool and back 2 or 3 times a week in the winter, most probably 1/2 full at most except around Christmas? I don't think that is justified.

 

I do agree the service could be better, but at the moment, can it really? and at the moment, can anyone do better? Can anyone suddenly pluck suitable competition out of thin air with suitable vessels right now? I don't think so. A new ship is going to cost around £35 million. A banger from Greece, maybe £2 million, refit it, bring it to IOM standards, and then run at 35 year old ship, doesn't happen overnight, and that investment would be financially unsound.

[girl89]

Just do Liverpool sailings on a weekend

[Tugger]

Forgetting the logistics of the matter, and the huge costs / risk of nobody using it..........

 

The cost of building it would be less than the value to the Racket in ensuring it is NOT built. Time to turn the screw.

 

So the only grounds to build another linkspan, is for the Government to admit that it has royally fucked up.

 

Not really, it can admit that the last government fucked up

 

So, I ask again, do you really think that will happen?

 

They should try it. We are being shafted here so that Macquarie can make more money. Everyone needs to keep in mind that this is NOT an ordinary commercial company. Not every aspect of its business needs to be money making, because the more profitable business lines can cross-subsidise the less profitable ones. The threat of a government investment that wipes half (at least) of the Racket's value at the stroke of a pen will wipe the smiles off Macquarie's faces. And we operate a surplus, we're accustomed to throwing money at useless capital projects. Why would they have any reason to suspect that we were bluffing?

[smooks]

I do agree the service could be better, but at the moment, can it really? and at the moment, can anyone do better? Can anyone suddenly pluck suitable competition out of thin air with suitable vessels right now? I don't think so. A new ship is going to cost around £35 million. A banger from Greece, maybe £2 million, refit it, bring it to IOM standards, and then run at 35 year old ship, doesn't happen overnight, and that investment would be financially unsound.

 

 

Apart from wearing an anorak; do you actually have much call to use the Steam Packet 'service' (oxymoron alert). If you did you may just get the faintest glean as to how justified the complaints are.

[Laxeyman]

I do agree the service could be better, but at the moment, can it really? and at the moment, can anyone do better? Can anyone suddenly pluck suitable competition out of thin air with suitable vessels right now? I don't think so. A new ship is going to cost around £35 million. A banger from Greece, maybe £2 million, refit it, bring it to IOM standards, and then run at 35 year old ship, doesn't happen overnight, and that investment would be financially unsound.

 

 

Apart from wearing an anorak; do you actually have much call to use the Steam Packet 'service' (oxymoron alert). If you did you may just get the faintest glean as to how justified the complaints are.

[AlexMcC]

Well in all honesty, 2 sailings a day to Heysham combined with Liverpool services at the weekend is a service. What else do you expect? Full summer service?

 

I do understand that a weekend service is nice to Liverpool, I do like to go on day trips to go buy stuff in shops, it's nice to pop over for a footy match, but realistically, can you justify running a service that is in the case of the SSC, only around 1/4 full? Or in the case of the Ben, have her miss sailings to justify carrying a hundred or so people back from Liverpool? Would you like the Steam Packet to alter its times from Heysham to accommodate, so the papers don't get in, along with the food until some strange hour?

 

Can I also ask, what was wrong with last years Summer service? I'm pretty sure it was the best summer service the Island has had for years.

 

There is always going to be problems with monopolies, but I can't see the faintest idea why competition would be good. Ok sure, maybe you can split the traffic in the summer, and maybe passenger traffic will increase, but during the winter, it wouldn't have a hope in hell, I doubt the winter service to Liverpool has ever made any money anyway, and like I said, there was a chance in 2003. I'm sure if thousands of people lined up to buy tickets at somewhere near summer (or even autumn levels) to buy tickets for a service provided to Liverpool daily, it would happen. If you want it, you have to use it, it's pretty simple!

[triskelion]

Triskelion, for someone who says they don't work for the Racket you seem to spend an inordinate amount of time supporting them and rubbishing the arguments against. Those of us who are attacking the Racket are doing it purely because we want a better service for ourselves and the Island, what is your motivation?

 

Seriously, I don't work for the Steam Packet, and I really hate flying, so have a serious interest in their being a decent ferry service to the Island.

 

My 'motivation' is that there be a constructive and rational debate on the subject. You said it yourself that hating 'the racket' is one of the main Manx characteristics, which suggests it is more a tradition almost, as opposed to a rational grievance. Though I do not think that is really a very fair thing to say, given that I am VERY sure there a sizeable number of people who have genuine issues with the Steam Packet, me included (Splatted vomit in toilet cubicles - Not cool).

 

However, I also think that the approach many people have taken with this is somewhat unhelpful and often counter-productive. The Steam Packet, let alone its owners, are unlikely to be swayed by an argument like: 'How am I supposed to get to a football match now?' Better would be something along the lines of 'The Steam Packet gave insufficient notice for their changes to the timetable, meaning I was unable to change my plans arranged prior to this. As a result I will now incur significantly increased costs to myself. I think that the Steam Packet should agree to provide details of its timetables well in advance to stop similar problems arising again. Obviously there would be exceptions in cases such as a ship being unexpectedly rendered out of service (as in the February 2007 collision) or similar serious event.'

 

The campaign for a better Steam Packet is only weakened by demands such as the nationalisation of the sea link, a weekend-only service, opening the route up to competition, building a new linkspan (where?) etc. If there was convincing evidence that any of these would work I would support them, but that is simply not the case. Also, using terms like 'Steam Racket' and blaming all the problems on 'Tynwald Incompetance' do not help either. Ultimately, in approaching the matter in this way only makes the people who do so look bad, and makes it difficult to take their grievances seriously.

[smooks]

Well in all honesty, 2 sailings a day to Heysham combined with Liverpool services at the weekend is a service. What else do you expect? Full summer service?

 

I do understand that a weekend service is nice to Liverpool, I do like to go on day trips to go buy stuff in shops, it's nice to pop over for a footy match, but realistically, can you justify running a service that is in the case of the SSC, only around 1/4 full? Or in the case of the Ben, have her miss sailings to justify carrying a hundred or so people back from Liverpool? Would you like the Steam Packet to alter its times from Heysham to accommodate, so the papers don't get in, along with the food until some strange hour?

 

Can I also ask, what was wrong with last years Summer service? I'm pretty sure it was the best summer service the Island has had for years.

 

There is always going to be problems with monopolies, but I can't see the faintest idea why competition would be good. Ok sure, maybe you can split the traffic in the summer, and maybe passenger traffic will increase, but during the winter, it wouldn't have a hope in hell, I doubt the winter service to Liverpool has ever made any money anyway, and like I said, there was a chance in 2003. I'm sure if thousands of people lined up to buy tickets at somewhere near summer (or even autumn levels) to buy tickets for a service provided to Liverpool daily, it would happen. If you want it, you have to use it, it's pretty simple!

 

 

Ah yes Alex, very eloquently presented but going back to my original post. When do you actually have cause to use the Steam Packet's service (oxymoron alert), other than in the school holidays with mum and dad? What's that you don't? Thought not.

 

Whilst trying to earn a living, regretfully I'm forced to use our shipping services all year round; one day, when you grow up, you may have some inkling of what I'm on about when I mention earning a living. Cast your mind back a few years, probably to when you were still in primary school. During the winter we had two ships, the Ben and the Lady of Mann. The Ben was able to provide a 7 day service to Heysham whilst the Lady was most effective at week-ends on the Liverpool route. Now the Lady has been sold in the interests of profit for MacQaurie bank and the Racket have placed it's ONE AND ONLY ship the Ben on a totally unsuitable week-end service to Birkenhead, whilst somehow trying to claim it as an improvement. How is it an improvement when a daily service to Heysham plus a weekend service to Liverpool has been coagulated into a one ship service purporting to serve both ports? Why sell the Lady of Mann and not replace her?

 

It's interesting to compare the Racket to Condor who provide the Channel Islands with it's shipping links. The CI have a very similar population to us yet Condor has two conventional vessels (one of which is an improved sister of the Ben) plus two fast crafts, both larger, newer and more sea worthy than the wrecks the Racket uses. Incidentally I've put the above mentioned points plus the comparison with CI services to Mr Woodward (of blog fame), he's yet to reply to me personally or mention it in his blog. What a surprise.....wonder why?

[smooks]

Triskelion, for someone who says they don't work for the Racket you seem to spend an inordinate amount of time supporting them and rubbishing the arguments against. Those of us who are attacking the Racket are doing it purely because we want a better service for ourselves and the Island, what is your motivation?

 

Seriously, I don't work for the Steam Packet, and I really hate flying, so have a serious interest in their being a decent ferry service to the Island.

 

My 'motivation' is that there be a constructive and rational debate on the subject. You said it yourself that hating 'the racket' is one of the main Manx characteristics, which suggests it is more a tradition almost, as opposed to a rational grievance. Though I do not think that is really a very fair thing to say, given that I am VERY sure there a sizeable number of people who have genuine issues with the Steam Packet, me included (Splatted vomit in toilet cubicles - Not cool).

 

However, I also think that the approach many people have taken with this is somewhat unhelpful and often counter-productive. The Steam Packet, let alone its owners, are unlikely to be swayed by an argument like: 'How am I supposed to get to a football match now?' Better would be something along the lines of 'The Steam Packet gave insufficient notice for their changes to the timetable, meaning I was unable to change my plans arranged prior to this. As a result I will now incur significantly increased costs to myself. I think that the Steam Packet should agree to provide details of its timetables well in advance to stop similar problems arising again. Obviously there would be exceptions in cases such as a ship being unexpectedly rendered out of service (as in the February 2007 collision) or similar serious event.'

 

The campaign for a better Steam Packet is only weakened by demands such as the nationalisation of the sea link, a weekend-only service, opening the route up to competition, building a new linkspan (where?) etc. If there was convincing evidence that any of these would work I would support them, but that is simply not the case. Also, using terms like 'Steam Racket' and blaming all the problems on 'Tynwald Incompetance' do not help either. Ultimately, in approaching the matter in this way only makes the people who do so look bad, and makes it difficult to take their grievances seriously.

 

 

Steam Racket PR ........................... zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

 

Answer the questions please.

 

Why was the Lady of Mann sold without a replacement lined up? How is today's one ship service an improvement, as your company claims it to be? Why do Condor Ferries find it necessary to employ two conventional vessels and two large fast crafts in it's service for the Channel Islands with a very similar population to ours, whilst the Racket think it can be done with one ship. Obviously the profits are better. What's going to happen in February 2008 when the Ben goes in for her bi-annual overhaul? In years gone by the Lady of Mann filled in, next time there'll be no conventional ship available. Only a highly weather dependent fast craft.

 

Obviously you'll respond claiming you don't work for the Racket, I don't believe you. Please ask Mr Woodward to respond on his blog.

[triskelion]

Steam Racket PR ........................... zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

 

Answer the questions please.

 

Why was the Lady of Mann sold without a replacement lined up? How is today's one ship service an improvement, as your company claims it to be? Why do Condor Ferries find it necessary to employ two conventional vessels and two large fast crafts in it's service for the Channel Islands with a very similar population to ours, whilst the Racket think it can be done with one ship. Obviously the profits are better. What's going to happen in February 2008 when the Ben goes in for her bi-annual overhaul? In years gone by the Lady of Mann filled in, next time there'll be no conventional ship available. Only a highly weather dependent fast craft.

 

Obviously you'll respond claiming you don't work for the Racket, I don't believe you. Please ask Mr Woodward to respond on his blog.

 

Oh sweet, delicious irony: You treat myself and AlexMcC in a totally unjustifiably condescending fashion, yet it is your posts that are without consideration and rational analysis. Your mind is utterly closed.

 

I have have no way of knowing for certain why a replacement for the Lady of Mann was not lined up. Most likely is that the company could not justify it financially. There would be little point in them lining up a replacement if they had little chance of making money back on the routes such a boat would run.

 

You second question depends somewhat on perspective. For the majority of Steam Packet passengers, I would probably say that the increased reliability of sailings provided by the Ben represents an improvement over 'vomit-comet' winter fast boat services. Actually, given that winter passenger numbers on the Liverpool service were so small in previous winters, having declined considerably, the reduced winter timetable is most likely an irrelevance for most Steam Packet passengers.

 

A quick look on the Condor Ferries website initially suggests that each Channel Island receives a service roughly equivalent to that which the Island received last winter, which is to say each is served my one fast craft and one conventional ferry. However, journey times are considerably longer overall, with the fast crossing to Jersey taking 3hrs 25mins (2hrs 10mins to Guernsey) and 10hrs 30mins by conventional ferry (7 hours to Guernsey). Actually though, the Channel Islands are served by only ONE conventional ferry, which stops at both on each service. They do not run the Poole route during the winter, and Condor also operates cross-channel routes.

 

A couple of points on that: Each Channel Island gets far fewer winter crossings than the Island will get this year with its one conventional ferry. From November to March, Jersey residents will be able to get a fast craft once out of every three days on average (once every four days for Guernsey). There is one conventional ferry sailing each night that serves both, though this does not run on Sundays. All in all, I would not say that the Channel Island get a superior service. I can't say I know Weymouth, but I doubt it is a buzzing metropolis, or within comparable reach of a city such as Liverpool as Birkenhead is. I cannot see why anyone would want to go to Portsmouth except to drive straight out of there. Channel Islanders should be glad they can only get there once a day (except Sundays).

 

So to sum that up, it seems to me (based on my research rather than the views of my employer as I am student) that the Island receives an arguably better service that the Channel Islands does. I would be looking at having to pay about £45 each way to Jersey or Guernsey on the fast ferry. The prices include an £11 fuel surcharge. If you actually look at the Condor Ferries website you will see that I am right about all of this.

 

I would assume the Steam Packet would look to reschedule to Ben's 'biannual overhaul' to enable a continuation of service. Either that or they have some other contingency, sch as temporarily chartering another vessel.

[The Voice of Reason]

Actually, given that winter passenger numbers on the Liverpool service were so small in previous winters, having declined considerably, the reduced winter timetable is most likely an irrelevance for most Steam Packet passengers.

 

Have you read the petition?

[rallybug]

Just put in the trip I was intending to make to the UK at Christmas (22/12 to 2/1) on both the IOMSP and Condor - SP came out at £252 return for a car and 1, Condor at £285. Bearing in mind that the journey to the UK from Jersey is a 10 hour sailing, and the fast ferry return is 3.5 hours, meaning, I assume, that the distances travelled are a fair bit greater, its funny how Condor is only £33 more.

[mtj73]

Alex does make some valid points about the charter arrangement and preferring reliable rather than seacat service in winter but like most people I feel we deserve better. The day trip figures last year are so low because nobody wanted to book a day trip not knowing if they would get back, thats if it went in the first place.

 

Why was the Lady of Mann sold without a replacement lined up?

 

This sentence says it all for me. SP must of seen this coming,

[Lost Login]

Why was the Lady of Mann sold without a replacement lined up?

 

This sentence says it all for me. SP must of seen this coming,

 

I have no definitive answer but I can have a decent stab at it. My gut feeling is that for a long time we in the Island have been requesting a fast craft service to the UK. That is what we have got in the main for passengers outside the winter period. I think the aim was fast craft for passengers, conventional ferry for cargoe. In the main I think the majority was happy with that and cetainly I am sure if the SP did not operate fast craft at all but relied purely on conventional ferries they would be equally castigated.

 

Having gone down that route you can presume why they did not buy a replacement boat as simply it was deemed not required as the majority of its sailings were now operated by a fast craft and those that were lerft for a replacement to use do not make it an economical proposition. Ignoring TT week its use would be 14 weekends over a year. Which is 28 sailings. It waould be hard to justify a large capital expenditure for so little use.

 

My gut feeling is that day returns to Liverpool have gone for a while now unless the SP purchase or lease a fast craft which fits all the relevent landing stages and can operate in virtually alll weather or they operate a second conventional ferry which fits all landing stages etc etc but that ferry operates all year round so it will replace the fast craft currently used. They are not going to spend a large sum of money on a vessel just to sit around doing nothing most of the year.

 

I suppose therefore the question is which do we value more fast craft for eight months of the year and no day returns to L'pool or day returns to L'pool but in return we loose the convenience of fast craft for 8 month sof the year.

 

 

 

 

I appreciate that this does not take into account wether the vessels are owned or leased.

[X-ManxMan]

Many people keep speculating why the Lady of Man was sold, so let me add my suspicions.

 

At the time of the sale Montigue Equity owned the Steam Packet, and Equity companies are renowned for asset stripping companies. Add the fact that Steam Packet was sold a few months later I suspect Montague sold her for a quick buck, knowing Steam Packet would be stuck for a winter service without her, but didn't care as they were selling the steam packet anyway.

 

A mate of mine who is a bit of a boat spotter (sad sod) keeps telling me of a number of modern fast boats the company have looked at which could operate a fast year round service, but the company won't buy for some reason. He believes the Steam Packet won’t buy another boat till one of the existing Sea Cats is sold or off charter.