Steam Packet - Oft Petition

[mtj73]

I suppose therefore the question is which do we value more fast craft for eight months of the year and no day returns to L'pool or day returns to L'pool but in return we loose the convenience of fast craft for 8 month sof the year.

 

 

A reliable passenger ship that can go a bit faster than the BMC bit slower than seacat, sail in force 9, compromise, it's got to be better than we got now.

[Lonan3]

What astonishes me is that, after assuring everyone that the Seacat/Supercat were perfectly suitable for wintertime trips in previous years, the farsighted people at the Steam Packet have suddenly decided that their reliability was somewhat suspect.

Well! Whoever would have thought it?

[monasqueen]

Actually, given that winter passenger numbers on the Liverpool service were so small in previous winters, having declined considerably, the reduced winter timetable is most likely an irrelevance for most Steam Packet passengers.

 

Yes, but why have the winter figures gone down so considerably?

 

In November 2003, 11,604 people arrived in Douglas from Liverpool, in December 2003, the figure was 11,251, and in January 2004, the figure was 8,870 - a total of 31,815.

 

In November 2006, there were 6,084, December 2006 4,873, January 2007 3,439 - a total of 14,396.

 

How many day trip passengers were there, I wonder, in 2003/4? How many have stopped travelling because there was no guarantee that the service would operate? The Steam Packet appear to have driven people away in droves, and the reduced timetable is not "an irrelevance".

 

Why have timings in the booking computer for a winter service, and then pull the timings without warning as late as October?

 

The losses over the last few years have probably been caused by the unreliability of the fast craft in winter conditions, leading to people not booking on them, the vast fuel costs of these vessels, and the fact that, at least last year, it has been admitted that the capacity on the Liverpool sailings was held down to the numbers that could be transferred to the Ben if the sailing had to be cancelled. They were bound to lose money if they would deliberately less than half fill the vessel each trip.

 

If a fast all weather vessel were put onto the service, there appears to be a vast and buildable market still out there (given the increase in population and car ownership on the Island), and potentially several thousand people who might come back to the Packet.

 

MQ

[mtj73]

Actually, given that winter passenger numbers on the Liverpool service were so small in previous winters, having declined considerably, the reduced winter timetable is most likely an irrelevance for most Steam Packet passengers.

 

Yes, but why have the winter figures gone down so considerably?

 

In November 2003, 11,604 people arrived in Douglas from Liverpool, in December 2003, the figure was 11,251, and in January 2004, the figure was 8,870 - a total of 31,815.

 

In November 2006, there were 6,084, December 2006 4,873, January 2007 3,439 - a total of 14,396.

 

How many day trip passengers were there, I wonder, in 2003/4? How many have stopped travelling because there was no guarantee that the service would operate? The Steam Packet appear to have driven people away in droves, and the reduced timetable is not "an irrelevance".

 

Why have timings in the booking computer for a winter service, and then pull the timings without warning as late as October?

 

The losses over the last few years have probably been caused by the unreliability of the fast craft in winter conditions, leading to people not booking on them, the vast fuel costs of these vessels, and the fact that, at least last year, it has been admitted that the capacity on the Liverpool sailings was held down to the numbers that could be transferred to the Ben if the sailing had to be cancelled. They were bound to lose money if they would deliberately less than half fill the vessel each trip.

 

If a fast all weather vessel were put onto the service, there appears to be a vast and buildable market still out there (given the increase in population and car ownership on the Island), and potentially several thousand people who might come back to the Packet.

 

MQ

you're right, my point exactly people stopped using the service because they could not rely on it. I remember the King orry used to packed at weekends, why else would they have stopped using this service?

[Manuel_Hung]

Yes, but why have the winter figures gone down so considerably?

 

In November 2003, 11,604 people arrived in Douglas from Liverpool, in December 2003, the figure was 11,251, and in January 2004, the figure was 8,870 - a total of 31,815.

 

In November 2006, there were 6,084, December 2006 4,873, January 2007 3,439 - a total of 14,396

 

I think you will find that the reasons are

 

1. The price of a ticket for a DAY RETURN was sometimes £60+ (it was cheaper in the summer to go on the same trip) and then getting on the boat to find it empty...... wonder why!!!!!!!?

 

2. The all weather vessels they use would not sail if there was more than a moderate breeze blowing, so surprise surprise people prefer to fly in an all weather mode of transport that they know will leave on time and from where it is suppose to be!

 

 

So in short the SR have priced themselves out of what was obviously a very good market because of greed, instead of looking after what had BEEN loyal passengers.........

 

<everyone at the SR give yourself a pat on the back>

[When Skies Are Grey]

Vessel for sale - bargain

 

I reckon if we all chipped in a few quid......

["V"]

I have been reading with interest the various postings on this subject over the past two weeks

I hope by now both the IOMSP and our MHKs/Government will realise that this topic isn't just going to fade away.

 

Obviously I'm not sure how old people are on here or how long they have lived on the Island but there is a precedent for the Government stepping in and running ferries when IOMSP could provide the service people wanted.

 

It happened in 1988. The seaman at IOMSP were in dispute with management and went on strike in April. With the threat of no shipping services for the TT, the Dept of Tourism (I think Alan Bell was Minister) chartered a Fred Olsen ferry MV Bolette.

The boat was chartered for a month.

To make back some of the charter fee the government ran a series of trips to Liverpool (leaving at midnight, arriving Liverpool 0700 and returning at 2000) The boat was old but very impressive when compared to the IOMSP boats we were and are used to: the sailings were well supported but most travellers had cabins so didn't mind the "overnight" crossing and on the 2000 return there was great food and a nightclub/disco.

 

I think it was used to bring some TT traffic over but the strike was called off before the big "rush".

It cost the taxpayers quite a bit of money which as events turned out wasn't needed but the government was praised for taking swift, clear action and not being held to ransom by the existing ferry operator.

 

Does anybody else recall this?

 

"V"

[Manuel_Hung]

Vessel for sale - bargain

 

I reckon if we all chipped in a few quid......

Speed 16,5 knots

 

They will never go for that it's 3 times faster than anything they have now

[When Skies Are Grey]

It happened in 1988. The seaman at IOMSP were in dispute with management and went on strike in April. With the threat of no shipping services for the TT, the Dept of Tourism (I think Alan Bell was Minister) chartered a Fred Olsen ferry MV Bolette.

[monasqueen]

Vessel for sale - bargain

 

I reckon if we all chipped in a few quid......

Speed 16,5 knots

 

Lovely ships, those, but did you spot the one "problem" - apart from being slower than Ben, she's older than Lady of Mann!!

 

MQ

[monasqueen]

It happened in 1988. The seaman at IOMSP were in dispute with management and went on strike in April. With the threat of no shipping services for the TT, the Dept of Tourism (I think Alan Bell was Minister) chartered a Fred Olsen ferry MV Bolette.

 

Great photo - note the similarity to the one for sale!!

 

Had some great trips on her that year, wonderfully friendly crew on board, too.......

 

MQ

["V"]

Thats her!

 

Based on that precedent and the current situation can you imagine the Govt (David Anderson, Minister of Transport) stating in Tynwald;

"Honourable Members, due to public demand and in light of the IOMSP's "issues" concerning travel to Liverpool this winter, we have decided to release them from their duty under the User Agreement to sail to a port "near Liverpool" at weekends. This will allow them to return the Ben My Chree to its normal two trips per day to Heysham for the winter.

In light of this concession, the Department has arranged to charter a vessel from 31st November until 1st March. This "all weather" vessel will;

sail from Douglas at 10.00 Friday arriving Liverpool at 14.00 returning to IOM at 15.30 arriving 19.30

sail at 20.30 on Friday to Dublin arriving 01.00, returning at 02.00 arriving Douglas at 06.30.

On Saturday she will sail for Liverpool at 07.30 arriving at 11.30 (in time for eary kick offs) returning at 19.00

Sunday will follow the timetable as Friday.

This provides for weekends and daytrips to Liverpool and the restoration of sea travel to Ireland.

If demand dictates the vessel could be available for mid-week passage to Dublin/Belfast or further trips to Liverpool.

I recommend this improvement to sea services to the House"

 

Bit of a Pipe Dream I think!!!

[AlexMcC]

Ah yes Alex, very eloquently presented but going back to my original post. When do you actually have cause to use the Steam Packet's service (oxymoron alert), other than in the school holidays with mum and dad? What's that you don't? Thought not.

 

Whilst trying to earn a living, regretfully I'm forced to use our shipping services all year round; one day, when you grow up, you may have some inkling of what I'm on about when I mention earning a living. Cast your mind back a few years, probably to when you were still in primary school. During the winter we had two ships, the Ben and the Lady of Mann. The Ben was able to provide a 7 day service to Heysham whilst the Lady was most effective at week-ends on the Liverpool route. Now the Lady has been sold in the interests of profit for MacQaurie bank and the Racket have placed it's ONE AND ONLY ship the Ben on a totally unsuitable week-end service to Birkenhead, whilst somehow trying to claim it as an improvement. How is it an improvement when a daily service to Heysham plus a weekend service to Liverpool has been coagulated into a one ship service purporting to serve both ports? Why sell the Lady of Mann and not replace her?

 

It's interesting to compare the Racket to Condor who provide the Channel Islands with it's shipping links. The CI have a very similar population to us yet Condor has two conventional vessels (one of which is an improved sister of the Ben) plus two fast crafts, both larger, newer and more sea worthy than the wrecks the Racket uses. Incidentally I've put the above mentioned points plus the comparison with CI services to Mr Woodward (of blog fame), he's yet to reply to me personally or mention it in his blog. What a surprise.....wonder why?

 

Ok, can I first point out that having a stab at my age is fully unjustified, it does not make me stupid and oblivious to whats going on.

 

I have frequently traveled away on the ferries, both summer and winter, on my own to visit family for the last 5 or 6 years. Now, I use it for day trips when on Island, though at the moment I'm at Uni. I will be honest, I won't use them to travel back, mainly because it would be a waste of time from London.

 

Second, yes, I remember the service that was provided by the Lady and the Ben. In fact, I will probably cast your mind back a bit further, if Seaco had never bought the SPC, the Lady wouldn't have been here and there would probably be little of a Liverpool service to speak of. Yes, the lady is gone, and yes, there is a reduction in services, and yes, it's not very helpful, but I really do wonder what proportion of people used the service for day trips. I accept decent day trips are needed, especially towards Christmas, but we can't have everything, and no matter how much we go on and on about the Lady, she is gone, and that's not going to change either. She was not making any money anyway in reality, and as aloof as it sounds, as pointed out, is it viable to have a ship that provides 28-42 sailings a year extra? No other shipping country in Europe would make an investment like that. The correct ship for the route will have to be built, plain and simple, and designed for very fast year round service.

 

I'll also point out that the combined population of the Channel Islands is more than twice that of the Isle of Man. They only have one conventional ship serving passengers, which has a lower maximum capacity (500 against 630 of the BMC). They also have 2 fast craft that carry similar numbers of pax to SSC2, and only 1 more fast round trip is available to the UK each day. The proximity to France justifies the small third passenger vessel, short trip, cheap food, and a great day out. Something not so easy with Ireland, especially when a service would have to be built around it, you can't quite provide the same number of round trips per day, and such lengthy day trips.

 

Lastly, for those of you using 2003 SPC winter figures in the run up to Christmas, again, I will point out, there was a daily service to Liverpool. Comparing the 2003 Dec figures with the 2006 ones, if the additional number of passengers is spread out evenly, it gives an average of 300 pax for each weekday sailing, that's the lady only 1/3 full. That's assuming it's spread out in the month, which I doubt, and that each figure represents a return passenger. As i suspect, it probably doesn't, and if counted as single trips, thats only 150 pax per sailing. Is that viable?

[mtj73]

Ok, can I first point out that having a stab at my age is fully unjustified, it does not make me stupid and oblivious to whats going on.

 

I have frequently traveled away on the ferries, both summer and winter, on my own to visit family for the last 5 or 6 years. Now, I use it for day trips when on Island, though at the moment I'm at Uni. I will be honest, I won't use them to travel back, mainly because it would be a waste of time from London.

 

Second, yes, I remember the service that was provided by the Lady and the Ben. In fact, I will probably cast your mind back a bit further, if Seaco had never bought the SPC, the Lady wouldn't have been here and there would probably be little of a Liverpool service to speak of. Yes, the lady is gone, and yes, there is a reduction in services, and yes, it's not very helpful, but I really do wonder what proportion of people used the service for day trips. I accept decent day trips are needed, especially towards Christmas, but we can't have everything, and no matter how much we go on and on about the Lady, she is gone, and that's not going to change either. She was not making any money anyway in reality, and as aloof as it sounds, as pointed out, is it viable to have a ship that provides 28-42 sailings a year extra? No other shipping country in Europe would make an investment like that. The correct ship for the route will have to be built, plain and simple, and designed for very fast year round service.

 

I'll also point out that the combined population of the Channel Islands is more than twice that of the Isle of Man. They only have one conventional ship serving passengers, which has a lower maximum capacity (500 against 630 of the BMC). They also have 2 fast craft that carry similar numbers of pax to SSC2, and only 1 more fast round trip is available to the UK each day. The proximity to France justifies the small third passenger vessel, short trip, cheap food, and a great day out. Something not so easy with Ireland, especially when a service would have to be built around it, you can't quite provide the same number of round trips per day, and such lengthy day trips.

 

Lastly, for those of you using 2003 SPC winter figures in the run up to Christmas, again, I will point out, there was a daily service to Liverpool. Comparing the 2003 Dec figures with the 2006 ones, if the additional number of passengers is spread out evenly, it gives an average of 300 pax for each weekday sailing, that's the lady only 1/3 full. That's assuming it's spread out in the month, which I doubt, and that each figure represents a return passenger. As i suspect, it probably doesn't, and if counted as single trips, thats only 150 pax per sailing. Is that viable?

 

It is good to read comments from from both sides of the argument, in fact a few years ago I would of defended the speam packet myself, but it's my opinion that the service (at the time when the time the petition was started because that's what matters) is not as good as when Sea containers ran the company, and you can't go backward in service and get away with it these days. I know seaco is now in trouble or maybe even bust I don't know but it made a profit running the sp and offered a decent service. I remember my brother and myself often using the £89 1 car 2 pax 5 day return just a few years ago, yes I know inflation and all but it's no way near now and price although a concern is not my real grumble. Here is my question, can you tell me if at any time in sp history there has only been 1 conventional ferry serving the island? As this seems to be the root of the problem, maybe there has I don't know, but do you think it is good enough to have only 1 conventional ferry running flat out, serving the island? The company has invested in new ships when times were hard for the Island, like the Monas Queen and the Lady of Mann in 1970's that ran along side the Manx Maid and the Ben My Chree just a few years older. Now they were not good times for the IOM, the tourist industry was on its knees and there was no financial sector but we still decent, reliable (although not always well managed and a bit pricey at times) ferries serving the IOM. I know there will be internal affairs within company that public will never know about, but we can't tell how to fix the problem we the customer can only tell them "look you've got a problem, get it sorted." I would like to see them invest in another all weather ship in the near future.

 

Edited to add:

I have just looked on sp web site and seems you can get 1 car 2 pax short break returns for £89 at the moment so deals that we used in the past are actually no more expencive. So price is not an issue for me, I also support the use of the Ben my Chree to Liverpool over the unreliable seacats at least you know that you're going to get there and what time you get back, but this has only happened because people kicked up a fuss. They probably are doing the best they can in this situation but maybe they could of prevented this situation.

[pablo100]

I don't find myself motivated to post very often but this ongoing debate has provoked me to have my say..

 

From what I understand from several sources the Govt. signed over the linkspan rights to the Steam Packet company in return for a minimum quantity of service to and from the Island, this was all fine and good at the time because at the time of the agreement they were part of the Sea Containers group and could be seen to be "doing their bit" by providing a service that more or less broke even for them and no doubt any losses made could be written off in a multitude of different ways. This brings me to my second point, we live on an island that cannot be self sustaining in any way shape or form in the 21st century (let alone the 20th) and the main industry here is looking after other peoples money and ensuring that worldwide governments do not claim a large share of it, while this put us in a good position, we are in effect, a nationwide service industry. Can anyone imagine the state that this place would be in if our offshore status was revoked and the Island became annexed to Cumbria or Lancashire? Therefore we should, as a "nation" have a vague grasp of economics and commerce, therefore when dealing with a wholly commercial entity such as the the SPco has become since it is owned by a private bank (with holdings over here in all probability) we should be aware that they are motivated by the same factors as the Island as a whole, i.e. profit making. Personally I think while the service that has been offered over the winter is, for the most part, unacceptable it is something that we have to come to terms with. We cannot expect to have a loss makng year-round day trip service handed to us on a plate as McQuarry, the SPco or any commercial entity does not provide charity and especially not to a community that makes it a prime concern to have as much of the worlds money held over or passing through here as is possible.

 

We should actually think ourselves lucky that when the linkspan agreement was signed that there was a minimum quantity of service agreement written into it as without that we'd be looking at fares that are far higher than we currently have and the daily connection to the mainland (slate me for that if you want) would be a thing of the past.

 

That is not to say that the SPco have got everything right, far from it, but at least they are trying to respond to whatever criticism that they come up against. There are examples of people complaining about the lack of reliability of the fastcraft services during the winter (and other times too) in previous years, and as they have sold the "all hallowed" Lady, there is a lack of a reliable craft for winter sailings, however from what I can gather, it was uneconomical to keep the boat in question in the fleet as there simply wasn't the passenger numbers to run it/her during times when it was the only viable craft or for peak demand during TT (which some people still slate even though it's the only thing that actually brings money in to here that isn't finance related). That smacks of an economic decision to me as there's no sentimentality in business.

 

This Island is not a charity case and regardless of what people think should not be one under the current climate. Tear me apart for this, make jokes about there being a boat for me to get on in the morning (oh the irony) but at least put blame where blame is due and that is firmly at the feet of the Govt for not creating something along the lines of the London Transport PPP (public private partnership) which ensures subsidised, high quality services at all times for all.