monasqueen Posted November 23, 2007 Share Posted November 23, 2007 I can not see the public accepting a new "slow" all year round boat to Liverpool in place of the fast craft. The sensible option would be for the Packet to acquire a fast all weather conventional boat - at 25 knots or thereabouts, Douglas to Liverpool would be a 3 hour journey - not significantly less than the old tin cans, and it would not be weather sensitive (other than in severe gale plus conditions, when even Ben gets cancelled). Looking at some of the craft of this type that are in use, it would be a lot more comfortable than the seacats, too, with better facilities on board, and with a proper galley could produce proper food!! This vessel would not be just a winter ship, but would be capable of taking in all ports, and it would develop the market well, particularly if it took coaches from all ports (and they bring in good money). At the moment, there are a couple of tin cans in hibernation. That cannot be cost effective (apart from the vast fuel and crew savings). MQ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monasqueen Posted November 23, 2007 Share Posted November 23, 2007 They chartered Emerarde France Sea Cat and the Caledonia something - both passenger carrying vessels.I think the problem with TT traffic was the loss of Sea Expess Yes but they were not the type of boats that could run a winter service to Liverpool The Stena Caledonia is a good all weather vessel, and very well appointed. She could run to Liverpool, but she would not be as fast as people might like, though she is faster than the Ben. http://www.ferry-site.dk/ferry.php?id=7910917〈=en MQ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
"V" Posted November 23, 2007 Share Posted November 23, 2007 Obviously I haven't done a full survey but with the right will I'm sure the IOMSP could make a good business running the "Ben" with almost all freight and another conventional ferry split between Liverpool and Ireland runs. For 2/3 rds of the year (March to November) there is a market already for a service to Liverpool, so a new craft would be well used and could cover existing Irish routes. In the Winter the schedules could be trimmed but with a reliable, reasonably quick service (3hrs to Liverpool would be fine) I think they could grow a nice business. There is money for travel both in IOM and in Liverpool Hinterland - it needs a good price and marketing. Going back to MQ's point on flying I agree that if APT was dropped flying could be as cheap (or cheaper) as sailing. However IOM govt can only remove the tax on the outward journey, they can't remove the tax charged from UK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lfc84 Posted November 23, 2007 Share Posted November 23, 2007 From Energy FM news Steam Packet unable to give evidence to Select Committee The Steam Packet has been unable to give evidence to a Tynwald Select Committee because of a legal challenge to the user agreement. A Petition of Doleance has been filed against the Department of Transport by Seaside Shipping Limited and the Steam Packet is party to the proceedings. The user agreement allows the company almost sole use of the linkspan in Douglas Harbour. Yesterday, Deemster Kerruish adjourned the case until next April. An advocate for the company gave a statement at a public meeting this morning. He said at this early stage any evidence given could be in contempt of court. The situation should be clearer by January when the Steam Packet may be in a position to speak to the Select Committee which is looking at the fare structure and the level of service offered to travellers. It was added the company is looking forward to being able to cooperate. Evidence was taken from passenger watchdog group Travelwatch Isle of Man. Last Updated:23/11/2007 16:13:48 A competitive challenge comes along and it results in a delay till April..... If you've wished for competition......be careful what you wish for ! Having a second operator on the crossing is bad news for the travelling public. Any compeitor coming in will simply want to cream off the freight trade. Even the current user agreement only requires the steam packet to provide one return trip PER WEEK via Liverpool. And, to be fair, whilst the scheduling is problematic, they have been exceeding the commitment in the user agreement for many years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexMcC Posted November 23, 2007 Share Posted November 23, 2007 I agree with that no ends, I can't see why a company would budge in on a passenger service that would make no money, especially after the type of investment that would be required..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tugger Posted November 23, 2007 Share Posted November 23, 2007 Because the alternative (for them) is worse. Which one do you think costs the SP more, a competitor, or a weekly day trip to Liverpool in the winter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Posted November 23, 2007 Share Posted November 23, 2007 So the number of passengers who travelled was more in 2003, what caused the decline? My wife's father fell ill this week and she rushed across. She flew to Blackpool (single) for £45 He's recovering now, but she wasn't really sure when she'd be able to return. She came back today, on the Ben, via Heysham... £31! YES that's £31 for a SINGLE on the ferry. Tomorrow, I would have been going to watch the football but I can't because of the timings (unusual I know, I need to do a day trip to/from Heysham). So, my not going will be added 'evidence' that people on the Isle don't want day trips. The real issue is very simple. The Steam Packet are trying to sell us a product that we don't want and over pricing it. Then, when we don't want to pay £62 return for the product we don't want, they use the figures as justification for not supplying us with the service that we do want. Incidentally, last year I wanted to go to football but wasn't sure that I wouldn't need to work on the Sunday, so it was a last minute decision. I went down to the Sea Terminal on the Saturday morning and was told "we can't sell day trips on the morning of travel anymore"! It was the first game of the season and I was there already, so I reluctantly paid £60 for a day return to Heysham. I wrote a letter of complaint and was told this was 'a mistake'. Did they refund the difference, or even offer a credit for their mistake? Of course not, I'd been stupid enough to pay it, they didn't give a toss. I have many hundreds of sailings with the Steam Packet. I have NEVER felt like a 'valued customer'. I have always felt like it's a case of 'like it or lump it'. PS I don't like the attitude of the company but I will say that in all those trips, I have always found the actual crew to be excellent, friendly & courteous. While 'having a go' at the Steam Packet and their management, I wouldn't want to tar the crew with the same brush (see how I introduced a nautical term there? ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Posted November 23, 2007 Share Posted November 23, 2007 Obviously I haven't done a full survey but with the right will I'm sure the IOMSP could make a good business running the "Ben" with almost all freight and another conventional ferry split between Liverpool and Ireland runs.For 2/3 rds of the year (March to November) there is a market already for a service to Liverpool, so a new craft would be well used and could cover existing Irish routes. In the Winter the schedules could be trimmed but with a reliable, reasonably quick service (3hrs to Liverpool would be fine) I think they could grow a nice business. There is money for travel both in IOM and in Liverpool Hinterland - it needs a good price and marketing. Going back to MQ's point on flying I agree that if APT was dropped flying could be as cheap (or cheaper) as sailing. However IOM govt can only remove the tax on the outward journey, they can't remove the tax charged from UK That's exactly what needs to be considered, could the SPC or A.N.Other make a passenger service profitable? The Ben is a freight boat that carries passengers. It's less comfortable than The King Orry was but it gets the freight here and it can carry a fair number of people. But it's priority has always been freight. I think the reason some people don't use the fast craft is indeed, the risk of being stranded. A vessel that sailed reliably to Liverpool, Dublin & Belfast, carrying cars & foot passengers would be used I'm sure, especially if it wasn't over priced. At the moment, it is often cheaper to fly to Liverpool and then hire a car for a couple of days than it is to take a car from the Island. If I do that (and I have) the ferry still sails but with one less car & passenger on board. I really do believe though, that in the Steam Packet eyes, the profit is in the freight, passengers are a bit extra on the side. Unless they change that attitude, they will fail to maximise their potential customer base. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gladys Posted November 24, 2007 Share Posted November 24, 2007 In a service that carries both cargo (freight is the charge made not the things carried) and passengers, cargo will always win as it needs no servicing while on board and is the carrier's liability is less so cheaper to insure. Perhaps a split is a good idea. Cargo, most often is not time-sensitive (within a day or two) but passengers definitely are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
triskelion Posted November 24, 2007 Share Posted November 24, 2007 Tomorrow, I would have been going to watch the football but I can't because of the timings (unusual I know, I need to do a day trip to/from Heysham). So, my not going will be added 'evidence' that people on the Isle don't want day trips. No, everyone accepts that people want weekend day trips. The problem is that hardly anyone used the weekday winter Liverpool service, thus making it difficult to justify the expense of maintaining a craft that only saw substantial use at the weekend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tempus Fugit Posted November 24, 2007 Share Posted November 24, 2007 do you think the Wisting is going to be the flagship of Seaside Shipping Limited Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Wright Posted November 24, 2007 Share Posted November 24, 2007 The only successful boats, now, are freight or cargo and passenger. If you divide you end up with two boats, double crews and double wages, oils bills and landing charges and a loss. By combining with roll on roll off you have a chance. Freight is every day and regular, its what makes the boats pay, passengers on our routes, at present, summer seacat sailings apart, are a bonus, they cost little to service as there have to be radio men, lifeboatmen and catering staff for the rest of the crew and freight drivers, they cover for passengers as well on the whole Under the agreement the Steam Packet has to build (or spend a large sum) on another boat within 3 or 4 years, we will inevitavbly get another Ben, maybe quicker, but with oil prices I doubt it. Its the only model which works As freight requirements increase, we could see a real service with boats each way every 6 hours all year round to Heysham and Liverpool Say ex IOM 08.00 Heysham 14.00 Liverpool 20.00 Heysham 02.00 Liverpool ex UK 08.00 Liverpool 14.00 Heysham 20.00 Liverpool 02.00 Heysham The Steam Packet would need a bus service between Heysham and Liverpool and day returns could be out one day back by 02.00 departure next day and open jaw Footballers and shoppers could go on the 02.00 departure from IOM and come back 20.00 or 02.00 and get a full day away. We would need more cabins for more night time sailings In Summer they could charter a fast craft for sailings to Ireland, Scotland, Cumbria and Wales. Once a week in winter they could do a Belfast and/or Dublin return, or even all year round for freight and a few passengers. It needs stability of craft, timetable and facilities. Up until now Liverpool has not been viable for freight using the pier head, the re installed floating road way onto the landing stage may change that, if not then Birkenhead. I am concerned about Heysham becoming silted, hence low tide schedule changes, no plans to dredge, Fleetwood may be an option, to cut down journey times for drivers, the dual carriageway is just closer to the boat but if you were on foot, it would be even more of a disaster than Heysham. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grant Posted November 25, 2007 Share Posted November 25, 2007 John, What a sensible post, the one day this year that the steam packet ran a crossing to whitehaven/douglas. One of my brothers rang to book ( no internet bookings) the day after the trip details appeared on the SP website and they had sold out. He asked when they planned the next whitehaven trips and after consulting her boss, she said that no further trips were planned for this year. Of course, no more did take place. Supply and demand! The SP seem to have no idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saltire Posted November 25, 2007 Share Posted November 25, 2007 I remember as a kid, (in the 80's), going on holiday to the IOM. We left from Ardrossan in Scotland for an 8 hour sailing on a conventional ship. Loved it as a kid, not sure if I would quite have loved it as an adult! Especially as the combined road journey from Scotland to Heysham - then sea from Heysham to Douglas beats it by 2 hours! (Doesn't help it rained all week ) Also regarding cargo charges. A company I worked for previously had to get an urgent job from Glasgow - IOM in a 7.5ton van. Then they had to get from IOM-Glasgow same day. They caught the 2.15pm sailing from Heysham, delivered, and made it back to the ferry for the 7.45pm sailing back to the UK. Cost? £2100! Now I know getting to and from an island is going to be expensive. But deduct £500 from that cost, and I could have hired an artic from Scotland to Barcelona! I hope Tesco and the supermarkets have a discounted rate to the island, otherwise the residents are paying more for their groceries than they should. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexMcC Posted November 25, 2007 Share Posted November 25, 2007 I hope Tesco and the supermarkets have a discounted rate to the island, otherwise the residents are paying more for their groceries than they should. I don't think they do, certainly inflated prices are paid for the food compared to the UK, another aspect of a monopoly. Of course, we could try competition as suggested and see what happens in the long run................................. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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