Steam Packet - Oft Petition

["V"]

Does anyone have access to a downloadable copy of the User Agreement?

None of the documents I have read talk of any penalties or consequences of non-compliance with the agreement (save the terminating of the agreement itself)

[monasqueen]

Passenger figures after 2003 ,for winter months appear to be pretty constant?

 

December:

2003/04 11,251

2004/05 8,356

2005/06 8,288

2006/07 4,873

 

January

2003/04 8,870

2004/05 5,284

2005/06 5,067

2006/07 3,439

 

The Packet appears to have been doing everything in their power to drive people away from the Liverpool route in Winter, and getting rid of the Lady has certainly succeeded in doing that. There are figures available that show if a fast conventional vessel (or 2!) were acquired, then there would be substantial growth in traffic, as has happened to the Shetlands with Northlink.

 

Remember that such a vessel would not be purely a winter vessel, as it would be versatile enough to provide a reliable all year service to the Irish Ports as well as Liverpool in the summer. It would be able to run to Liverpool in 3 hours, more comfortably than a seacat - and how many people are really worried about the diffrence between 2 1/2 and 3 hours? It would be able to provide cover for Ben, with a bit of freight capacity, and it would have one hell of a life expectancy over and above the aluminium craft. Expensive short term, but the long term gain has substantial promise, and has to be considered.

 

Am I right, but was the Seacat originally supplied with a life expectancy of 7 years? And how old is it now? Why is it being put back together after being wrecked? Why has the Packet not bought, or ordered, something else in the years that they have been promising replacements?

 

mq

[monasqueen]

Does anyone have access to a downloadable copy of the User Agreement?

None of the documents I have read talk of any penalties or consequences of non-compliance with the agreement (save the terminating of the agreement itself)

 

Can't help there, I'm afraid, you probably have to go to Tynwald Library and pay for a copy.

 

Here is a link to the Hansard document detailing the Tynwald debate of 14 December 2004, when the amendment to the User Agreement was discussed.

 

http://www.tynwald.org.im/papers/hansards/.../th14122004.pdf

 

The Steam Packet section runs from page 73 to page 80, and makes for very intersting reading.

 

mq

[triskelion]

Passenger figures after 2003 ,for winter months appear to be pretty constant?

 

December:

2003/04 11,251

2004/05 8,356

2005/06 8,288

2006/07 4,873

 

January

2003/04 8,870

2004/05 5,284

2005/06 5,067

2006/07 3,439

Is that supposed to be a comparative between the two months? If so why?

 

The Packet appears to have been doing everything in their power to drive people away from the Liverpool route in Winter, and getting rid of the Lady has certainly succeeded in doing that.

That is purely conjecture. The 2005/2006 season was done so without the Lady of Mann with only a tiny drop in passengers.

 

There are figures available that show if a fast conventional vessel (or 2!) were acquired, then there would be substantial growth in traffic, as has happened to the Shetlands with Northlink.

Where are these numbers? Have they been gathered specifically for the Isle of Man case? Remember that flying to 'the mainland' is much more expensive for Shetland Islanders than it is for residents of the Isle of Man.

 

Remember that such a vessel would not be purely a winter vessel, as it would be versatile enough to provide a reliable all year service to the Irish Ports as well as Liverpool in the summer. It would be able to run to Liverpool in 3 hours, more comfortably than a seacat - and how many people are really worried about the diffrence between 2 1/2 and 3 hours? It would be able to provide cover for Ben, with a bit of freight capacity, and it would have one hell of a life expectancy over and above the aluminium craft. Expensive short term, but the long term gain has substantial promise, and has to be considered.

Okay this sounds good, and a look at the Northlink ferries website made me like the look of the ships. However am unsure about your time estimates. It is 12 hours from Lerwick in Shetland to Aberdeen, with the distance about 200 miles. This means the crossing to Liverpool from Douglas would be 4.2 hours (ish).

 

In all honesty I think this is good option. I really, really do. However, I am not sure that enough Manx people would use it to make it viable. The Shetlands ferry service is, after all, subsidised by the Scottish Parliament.

 

Am I right, but was the Seacat originally supplied with a life expectancy of 7 years? And how old is it now? Why is it being put back together after being wrecked? Why has the Packet not bought, or ordered, something else in the years that they have been promising replacements?

For all we know they might of. That's part of the whole problem really: the Staem Packet isn't very transparent. I suppose it isn't obliged to be, but it might help.

[monasqueen]

Is that supposed to be a comparative between the two months? If so why?

 

No, just to show that there was a significant drop in the last year, in those 2 months, which was not reflected in the November figures.

 

There are figures available that show if a fast conventional vessel (or 2!) were acquired, then there would be substantial growth in traffic, as has happened to the Shetlands with Northlink.

Where are these numbers? Have they been gathered specifically for the Isle of Man case? Remember that flying to 'the mainland' is much more expensive for Shetland Islanders than it is for residents of the Isle of Man.

 

The research was all relative to the Northlink services, but makes for interesting comparisons, particularlywhere they make reference to the "new service effect" on page 5.

http://www.news.napier.ac.uk/assets/documents/asset_15.pdf

 

It would be able to run to Liverpool in 3 hours, more comfortably than a seacat .

Okay this sounds good, and a look at the Northlink ferries website made me like the look of the ships. However am unsure about your time estimates. It is 12 hours from Lerwick in Shetland to Aberdeen, with the distance about 200 miles. This means the crossing to Liverpool from Douglas would be 4.2 hours (ish).

 

Quite a lot of time is lost in getting into and out of Aberdeen - a very tricky port. Lady of Mann could (and did with me on it) get between Douglas and Liverpool (rops off to ropes on) in under 3 1/2 hours. These vessels are faster

 

In all honesty I think this is good option. I really, really do. However, I am not sure that enough Manx people would use it to make it viable. The Shetlands ferry service is, after all, subsidised by the Scottish Parliament.

 

Perhaps that's our answer - the Government should subsidise the Packet to buy a proper ship, and then put minimum standards of service requirements on it. Note that Northlink are "fined" if the service falls below required standards.

 

mq

[Lost Login]

Perhaps that's our answer - the Government should subsidise the Packet to buy a proper ship, and then put minimum standards of service requirements on it. Note that Northlink are "fined" if the service falls below required standards.

 

mq

 

Don't we already have that with regard to the user agreement, but now every body is bleating about those minimum standards

["V"]

Thats exactly what I was getting at.

A fast conventional ferry would build traffic not reduce it.

There is a demand for travel to Liverpool - thats why Flybe are opening up in competition to Euromanx rather than flying to Blackpool or Carlisle or another airport near Heysham!!

 

If the IOMSP had a reliable service to Liverpool then passenger and car traffic would grow.

The Steam Packet are currently giving us the wors´t of all worlds cos they are committed to daily service to Heysham and weekly to Liverpool with just one boat that has to do both Pax and freight.

 

The Govt should offer to help them buy a suitable vessel on a lease back agreement or similar with financial penalties for poor performance

[triskelion]

It would be able to run to Liverpool in 3 hours, more comfortably than a seacat .

Okay this sounds good, and a look at the Northlink ferries website made me like the look of the ships. However am unsure about your time estimates. It is 12 hours from Lerwick in Shetland to Aberdeen, with the distance about 200 miles. This means the crossing to Liverpool from Douglas would be 4.2 hours (ish).

 

Quite a lot of time is lost in getting into and out of Aberdeen - a very tricky port. Lady of Mann could (and did with me on it) get between Douglas and Liverpool (rops off to ropes on) in under 3 1/2 hours. These vessels are faster

 

In all honesty I think this is good option. I really, really do. However, I am not sure that enough Manx people would use it to make it viable. The Shetlands ferry service is, after all, subsidised by the Scottish Parliament.

 

Perhaps that's our answer - the Government should subsidise the Packet to buy a proper ship, and then put minimum standards of service requirements on it. Note that Northlink are "fined" if the service falls below required standards.

 

mq

 

We may indeed be getting somewhere. Before any talk of Government subsidies though, I think we should want more information about how the Steam Packet intends to spend on the fleet as it is obligied to do so. I am still concerned about the viabilty of a winter service to Liverpool though in terms of passenger numbers, which is why I think your idea of subsidising a ship and then placing minimum standards on it is unworkable: Why would the Steam Packet take on service it could not make money on? I suppose you could make the argument that the low amount they would have paid for the ship would offset this, but it is an undesirable situation still. Furthermore the Government would be out of pocket with few benefits to it or the Manx people.

 

For it to be financially justifiable there would need to be a broader strategy in which use of the ferry was encouraged. It is difficult because people tend not to travel much anyway during the winter.

 

V: The flights to Liverpool are net necessarily comparable. Yes Flybe has opened up a route to JLA recently, and that is linked to the lack of direct ferry service. However, it is much easier for them to put on a couple of flights than it is for the Steam Packet to charter (or purchase) a whole other ferry, crew it and then operate it. Furthermore, Liverpool is a fairly large airport now, with many onward flights to a large array of destinations. From Liverpool Docks, you can get on Merseyrail...It isn't quite the same thing.

[rallybug]

Okay this sounds good, and a look at the Northlink ferries website made me like the look of the ships. However am unsure about your time estimates. It is 12 hours from Lerwick in Shetland to Aberdeen, with the distance about 200 miles. This means the crossing to Liverpool from Douglas would be 4.2 hours (ish).

 

The MV Hamnavoe (112-metre pax/ro boat) that Northlink brought into service in April 2003 cost £28 million, and has a speed of 20.5kts.

The MV Hjaltland (125-metre pax/ro boat) for Northlink brought into service in October 2002 cost £30 million, and has a speed of 24kts

 

The Ben my Chree has a service speed of 18kts, and was brought into service in 1998, at a cost of £24m.

 

The Lady's service speed was 22kts, so the smaller Northlink boat would be slightly behind the Lady after an SP crossing but the larger boat would be ahead, and obviously both would be a fair way behind the seacats in good weather.

 

Maybe the SP should go to the Aker Yards in Finland to order a new conventional boat - they've made big ones for Brittany Ferries too, so can cope with rough weather conditions

[AlexMcC]

I can't see Liverpool being the SPC's all year round port of call for at least 10 years, the Ben cannot make 2 round trips there a week doing the freight, she isn't fast enough.

 

We do need a fast conventional as it would be an effective use of resources, but it should be doing about 27 knots, I can't see the public being any happier with a 3 1/2 - 4 hour service to Liverpool in the summer, ever again.....

[homarus]

I keep reading that the winter Liverpool route is a loss maker ,again do have we any info to support this statement?

 

 

In seems a bit strange that ferries have been plying the Iom--Liv route for 175yrs(?) and all of a sudden the route is not cost effective?

[Tugger]

Under no circumstances should the SR be the beneficiary of a subsidy.

 

If a subsidy is required, it must go to a new carrier. I don't see why the SR should profit even further from fucking us over

[jaybs]

I agree no way should any Manx government money be given as a subsidy to this investment bank acting as The Steam Packet, it is time for a new shipping company to be allowed to service the Island in competition.

 

It is okay the head of tourism praising the cheap air flights being announced, that is just a nice white wash or cover to get people away from thinking of our Island roots with shipping!

[Lost Login]

I keep reading that the winter Liverpool route is a loss maker ,again do have we any info to support this statement?

No but but it is logical to assume that if it was making a profit then the SP would operate it over the winter

 

In seems a bit strange that ferries have been plying the Iom--Liv route for 175yrs(?) and all of a sudden the route is not cost effective?

And the demand and competition over that time has been constant? Equally staff tems & consitions health & safety etc etc etc

[homarus]

I keep reading that the winter Liverpool route is a loss maker ,again do have we any info to support this statement?

No but but it is logical to assume that if it was making a profit then the SP would operate it over the winter

 

In seems a bit strange that ferries have been plying the Iom--Liv route for 175yrs(?) and all of a sudden the route is not cost effective?

And the demand and competition over that time has been constant? Equally staff tems & consitions health & safety etc etc etc

 

Right then ! so you are saying that all the arguements based on the Iom--Liv winter service being scrapped because it is not 'cost effective' are based on assumption not fact?

 

My assumption is this! that Macquarrie know they have a monopoly and would rather provide a two bob service that ploughs any profits straight back into the pockets of their investment fund owners , rather than invest multi millions in a ship suitable for Liverpool and the Irish Sea in winter .

It might also be worth considering ,that the weather starts to break around October and does not start to settle until March -April so any proposed new vessel would be well utilised I.M.O.

Obviously I am assuming!