Steam Packet - Oft Petition

[Lost Login]

Right then ! so you are saying that all the arguements based on the Iom--Liv winter service being scrapped because it is not 'cost effective' are based on assumption not fact?

Unless I become the the auditor or accountant of the SP or they report publically all their figures then I am reliant on making educated assumptions.

 

My assumption is this! that Macquarrie know they have a monopoly and would rather provide a two bob service that ploughs any profits straight back into the pockets of their investment fund owners , rather than invest multi millions in a ship suitable for Liverpool and the Irish Sea in winter .

It might also be worth considering ,that the weather starts to break around October and does not start to settle until March -April so any proposed new vessel would be well utilised I.M.O.

Obviously I am assuming!

 

That could be a fair assumption but is all falls on whether an investment in such a vessel would give an increased return. If it would and lead to an increased divi in the pockets of the shareholder then they would make the investment. If the investment will not make a return then they will not. This is not rocket science it is basic simple economics and it surprises me how many struggle to appreciate the basics of business on these pages. In the short term it might not lead to an increase in distributions but that would be more than offset in an increase in the value of the shares as the market prices the expected future profitability in.

[triskelion]

I agree no way should any Manx government money be given as a subsidy to this investment bank acting as The Steam Packet, it is time for a new shipping company to be allowed to service the Island in competition.

 

It is okay the head of tourism praising the cheap air flights being announced, that is just a nice white wash or cover to get people away from thinking of our Island roots with shipping!

 

Do you have any evidence competition is good option in this situation? What facilities would they use given that the IoM Government is tied to the Linkspan Agreement?

 

You can't please some people. Cheaper flights is good for the Island: People are always complaining they are a rip-off (though they are comparable to other small island services). As for 'our Island roots with shipping,' you might as well criticise the Government praise the growth of the finance sector as 'white wash or cover to get people away from thinking of our Island routes with' farming and fishing. And smuggling.

 

Macquarie owns 10% of the Steam Packet, which is just one operator in a very large portfolio. It is not conspiring against the Island's people.

 

Under no circumstances should the SR be the beneficiary of a subsidy.

 

If a subsidy is required, it must go to a new carrier. I don't see why the SR should profit even further from fucking us over

 

Please be mature enough to stop swearing and calling it the 'Steam Racket.' All it achieves is a diminishing of your own credibility.

 

Homarus: The value of the Steam Packet to its owners is its long term success. There is not all not that much money to be made from a purely freight line. No the kind of money they want to be making anyway. Therefore it is reasonable to assert that it is within the long term interests of the owners to invest in the fleet (they are obliged to anyway) and certainly they would run a service if it was going to gain them a profit. The Steam Packet is a business like many, many others and nowhere near as immoral as many businesses you would use without a second thought such as Nestle or Boots.

[Laxeyman]

What a debate,

 

Much better than tele tonight!

 

Still as I thought it would be good to ask Macquarie what they own and they told me!

 

I thought I would share this to give us a bit of spice

 

Lucky old me had the fortune of contracting in Menorca, so we had to move our kit from IOM to Menorca that’s a lot of ferries!!

Liverpool IOMSP then Portsmouth –Bilbao (P&O) and (Anccona) Barcelona to Mahon

 

Now for the facts for the sake of comparison,

 

Menorca an Island of 30x15 miles….sound familiar? 4 ferry companies plus 1 fright (via container only) plus 1 Sea cat in the summer. 2 ports. 1 worse than Ramsey is now!!!

 

34,000 people in the winter, AND yes if you pay tax there you get 50% off when you travel even though the Govm’t in Madrid charges the same tax on travel as the UK Govm’t does, all you do is input on the web booking form your TAX number and the price changes. (For residents only) Er we get charged by the UK Govm’t don’t we?? And does the IOM Govm’t share that?

 

How do they do it then, well because the fleet has to go to the other Islands Majorca, and Ibiza, they are offered and bigger cake. Not 1 route but all the routes nearby.

Now what is different……..And before anyone tells me, when I mean calling in I mean that the service is direct that they use the direct based boats on the route that serves the islands from there pool of craft they don’t stop off. You don’t know what boat you’re on till it gets there, but it does get there under the user deal.

 

This way there is always a boat of the right class at each time of the year……….yes your right that is because it is a bigger company with a lot of boats…….but what is the difference if all this traffic is going to Ireland anyway past us is it not the same?

 

One only has to go to Douglas Head with your telescope to see all the boats coming/going north or south of US!!

 

The thing is we have 1 company with the sole rights and 1 boat can this work for the next 20 years………..er NO, The Meorcans found that out years ago as the restrictive service affective there growth big time.

 

As for numbers the summer season deluge from us Brits and the Germans pans out roughly the same numbers as the TT influx. So the Tourist thing won’t wash with the numbers.

There is NO mixing of the fright that comes in container only.

 

Interesting how other people solve this, and as regional Govm’t there gives back the 50% discount to the taxpaying Islanders (everybody else like me pays the full cost) guess what? The numbers are good all year round…….

 

I think scale is the thing here and we don’t have it in a changed world since the deal was struck. And I don’t think there is an issue about us not being part of the UK if there is cash in this and there is, the ferry companies will find a way. WE NEED A BIG PLAYER NOT FRED IN HIS SHED!

 

Whatever the view does anybody think that this system will serve us for another 20 years, if so can the last person out turn off the lights please when they go!

[jaybs]

This debate continues on the Yahoo Group IOM Steam Packet, overnight a reply defending the Steam Packet and Macquarie, what a great job they are doing, it could not have been better put by a PR Person from the SP themselves, of course I disagree with the poster and thankfully the majority of Public opinion seem to, we just need some action from those who represent The People! and not SP/Macquarie interests.

[triskelion]

This debate continues on the Yahoo Group IOM Steam Packet, overnight a reply defending the Steam Packet and Macquarie, what a great job they are doing, it could not have been better put by a PR Person from the SP themselves, of course I disagree with the poster and thankfully the majority of Public opinion seem to, we just need some action from those who represent The People! and not SP/Macquarie interests.

 

If 'the majority of public opinion' have constructed an argument as ridiculous as you and almost everybody else who hates the Steam Packet has then we are all doomed. Clearly none of you have been somewhere transport provision is actually bad. Regardless, the Steam Packet is here to stay as only they can use the linkspan agreement. There is nothing anyone can do about this, unless the Steam Packet fails to meet minimum service standards, which it currently exceeds. So rather than whining, illogical and poorly-research posts about how rubbish it is, try to be more constructive.

 

Laxeyman: A couple of points. Firstly, as you yourself point out, the Menorcan ferry service is subsidised by the regional Government, which is not, and should never be, the situation for the Isle of Man. As for passing the Island's service over to a major carrier, even if this were possible, we would still be in the same situation, with them running the profitable freight service but not a loss-making winter service to Liverpool. Indeed, we would probably lose even the Birkenhead link as they would not be tied into a certain level of service by the linkspan agreement.

 

Yes, they could make Douglas a stop on the way, but that we considerably lengthen the crossing time for Irish passengers who already have Ryanair as it is.

 

Furthermore, the tourist thing does wash, actually, as almost all Brits and Germans (and people from other countries) invade Menorca for the summer by air rather than by sea.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by 'charged by the UK Government.' I'll assume you mean VAT, which is shared with the Island, yes. Is your point that we should therefore get discount?

[homarus]

Another day same old story,Triskelion!

 

Money,money,money, loss making winter service etc?, have you any figures to back up your stance or are you just making assumptions for the sake of arguement, like a few other posters on this topic?

 

Yesterday you posted (Quote) 'Theres not much money in freight'

Today you post (Quote) 'A loss making winter service ' .

 

If it's that bad why were Macquarrie so keen to invest in the Steam Packet?

 

Anyway even if the Liverpool winter service is loss making ( which I personally will not accept until i see some figures to back up that statement ) it has to be viewed as part of a whole package!

The steam packet was set up originally to provide an acceptable level of service to the people of the Isle of Man ,at this moment in time it's patently obvious it's not doing so!.

Nothings changed in regards to the wishes of the majority of *seagoing* travellers for nearly 175years ,Liverpool is still the Port of choice for the majority of the travelling public and the steam packet as service providers are I'm sure well aware of this!.

This situation has arisen because MacQuarrie are trying to run a service industry and at the same time keep their shareholders happy , and at this moment in time it's quite obvious where the money is going!.

Profits that should be spent on providing a suitable vessel for the Irish Sea/Liverpool route (as promised)are being creamed off by the shareholders (I.M.O.).

 

(edit * to clarify)

[Laxeyman]

This debate continues on the Yahoo Group IOM Steam Packet, overnight a reply defending the Steam Packet and Macquarie, what a great job they are doing, it could not have been better put by a PR Person from the SP themselves, of course I disagree with the poster and thankfully the majority of Public opinion seem to, we just need some action from those who represent The People! and not SP/Macquarie interests.

 

If 'the majority of public opinion' have constructed an argument as ridiculous as you and almost everybody else who hates the Steam Packet has then we are all doomed. Clearly none of you have been somewhere transport provision is actually bad. Regardless, the Steam Packet is here to stay as only they can use the linkspan agreement. There is nothing anyone can do about this, unless the Steam Packet fails to meet minimum service standards, which it currently exceeds. So rather than whining, illogical and poorly-research posts about how rubbish it is, try to be more constructive.

 

Laxeyman: A couple of points. Firstly, as you yourself point out, the Menorcan ferry service is subsidised by the regional Government, which is not, and should never be, the situation for the Isle of Man. As for passing the Island's service over to a major carrier, even if this were possible, we would still be in the same situation, with them running the profitable freight service but not a loss-making winter service to Liverpool. Indeed, we would probably lose even the Birkenhead link as they would not be tied into a certain level of service by the linkspan agreement.

 

Yes, they could make Douglas a stop on the way, but that we considerably lengthen the crossing time for Irish passengers who already have Ryanair as it is.

 

Furthermore, the tourist thing does wash, actually, as almost all Brits and Germans (and people from other countries) invade Menorca for the summer by air rather than by sea.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by 'charged by the UK Government.' I'll assume you mean VAT, which is shared with the Island, yes. Is your point that we should therefore get discount?

 

Triskelion,

You seem to know a lot about this issue, I mean I use the service in Menorca but you know more than I.

 

1. The Numbers of Brits and Germans Don’t use the boats this means the numbers are low like us here in the IOM

2. The boat (new)provided is direct from the feet that is Mahon to Barcelona-Barcelona to Mahon and does not call in

3. Because it is a bigger company they have a fleet of boats to chose from to run an all weather service

4. If a boat does call in it is like a stopping train you have the option of the stopper to visit other places or the fast direct as above

5. If they don’t run this all year round service you DON’T get to run the others making up the whole cake of profit

6. The system with the single carrier did not work as they could not get the numbers up on their 1960’s boat why! Because it was too expensive and the boat was old. It was further proven that unless there was help here there would be no service. As it is the whole Island has now benefited. I have been able to export to that Island in turn the people (only small amount) have the use of a very technical service. Market forces do not work all the time, the bigger picture of the whole economy has to be looked at otherwise you would go back to the state of the dark ages.

7. Fright is not part of the service so it is out of it

8. I see that our ferry is just like the a road from Douglas to Ramsey we pay our road tax and the road is maintained Sometimes market forces cant sort it and we have to.

 

I commended you support triskelion, for the SP (even though it is a bit to pro to the point you might work for them)

 

There are too many other points in this a one boat company is holding back the Isle of Man, for one thing fuel is going to go up and up with the flights so what then, we are back to the minimum service agreement on and off the Island?

 

As it is a family of 4 has to pay what £120 in tax to the UK Govm’t BEFORE they set off the island to see their family etc, we are an Island we have to have this service and the Menorcans of 34000 people are in the same boat…………err boats!!! Even with £60 of TAX going to pay for a better service it would be great for all of us, this tax was a recent thing anyway so no one can say they have to find new money!

 

I’m not at this stage going to tell you what happened to me when I tried to bring over my Dad’s greenhouse?? Let’s put it this way was it freight or was it for personal use?? At the end of this jolly situation, after the full body search to see if I had 1 yes 1 tool with me i.e. a hammer or a saw or a drill I got it on! Now where would this exist anywhere else………………mmmmmm profit facing not service facing, I know this is not the case on the Menorca ferries you take what you like it is a service for the PEOPLE AS THEY LIVE ON AN ISLAND LIKE US!

 

Another example of market forces not working all the time.

[monasqueen]

Has anyone seen the Questions for oral answer in the House of Keys next Tuesday?

 

Peter Karran is asking the following - good on yer Peter!

 

14. The Hon Member for Onchan (Mr Karran) to ask the Minister for

Transport –

(1) Following the questions about the User Agreement in this

House, are you aware of how many on-line Petitions there have

been about winter day trips and the lack of an all-weather fast

conventional ferry;

(2) have you had meetings with the Steam Packet to discuss these

issues, and is the Steam Packet, together with COMIN, hiding

behind the User Agreement; and

(3) if so, what have been the results of talks with the Steam Packet

Company?

[Lost Login]

Another day same old story,Triskelion!

 

Money,money,money, loss making winter service etc?, have you any figures to back up your stance or are you just making assumptions for the sake of arguement, like a few other posters on this topic?

Another day same old Homarus! Although I am not sure why I am responding as Triskelion I am sure does not need my assistance but more importantly we are just now going over old ground.

 

Nobody postings has any facts on profitability etc of the SP or parts of it as they are not published so ye everybody is making assumptions. Nobody disputes that.

 

 

If it's that bad why were Macquarrie so keen to invest in the Steam Packet?

 

Anyway even if the Liverpool winter service is loss making ( which I personally will not accept until i see some figures to back up that statement ) it has to be viewed as part of a whole package!

 

Why does it. If I am in business and I have three profitable parts of my business and one loss making, and there is no reasonable way of turning around the loss making, I would look at closing the loss making segment provided such an action would not impinge on the profitable segments. As a business wh is the SP any different?

 

Nothings changed in regards to the wishes of the majority of travellers in nearly 175years ,Liverpool is still the Port of choice for the majority of the travelling public and the steam packet as service providers are I'm sure well aware of this!.

 

Loads has changed in 175 years. Flying and cheap flights especially has brought in competition. You would have wanted in the past to travel to Liverpoll to catch a train to your destination. Flights will now take you there or much nearer. Many travel by car this takes out the reqirement to be ferried to a port with good rail connections. Freight transport is now mainly by Road and generally containerised.

The only thing that you can say is that those who travel on foot only still have Liverpool as their port of choice, that is a minority probably of those that use it and certainly a minority of those travelling to & from the Island.

 

This situation has arisen because MacQuarrie are trying to run a service industry and at the same time keep their shareholders happy , and at this moment in time it's quite obvious where the money is going!.

 

Welcome to the corporate world!

 

Profits that should be spent on providing a suitable vessel for the Irish Sea/Liverpool route (as promised)are being creamed off by the shareholders (I.M.O.).

 

Why should profits be spent on that basis if it will not be produce a return. By Law the directors have a fiduciary responsibility to their shareholders and they are appointed by the shareholders. If they do not do that and spend the companies money in some other way they are potentially negligent

 

None of this is rocket science it is basically simple business however for some reason various posters on this site appear to believe that the SP because it is a service industry should operate on different rules. No it is still in business to make a profit and part of the requirement to do so is like any business to keep the customers happy but not at any cost. I accept the SP at present is not doing that as well as it might but ultimately it is a business whether we like it or not and businesses are there to make money. Until you grasp that simple fact and realise that ultimately whatever the SP do it will to an extent be money driven you will struggle to put a coherent argument together in respect of how the SP can be expected to improve for the better as it must benefit all parties

[triskelion]

Another day same old story,Triskelion!

 

Money,money,money, loss making winter service etc?, have you any figures to back up your stance or are you just making assumptions for the sake of arguement, like a few other posters on this topic?

 

Yesterday you posted (Quote) 'Theres not much money in freight'

Today you post (Quote) 'A loss making winter service ' .

 

If it's that bad why were Macquarrie so keen to invest in the Steam Packet?

 

Anyway even if the Liverpool winter service is loss making ( which I personally will not accept until i see some figures to back up that statement ) it has to be viewed as part of a whole package!

The steam packet was set up originally to provide an acceptable level of service to the people of the Isle of Man ,at this moment in time it's patently obvious it's not doing so!.

Nothings changed in regards to the wishes of the majority of travellers in nearly 175years ,Liverpool is still the Port of choice for the majority of the travelling public and the steam packet as service providers are I'm sure well aware of this!.

This situation has arisen because MacQuarrie are trying to run a service industry and at the same time keep their shareholders happy , and at this moment in time it's quite obvious where the money is going!.

Profits that should be spent on providing a suitable vessel for the Irish Sea/Liverpool route (as promised)are being creamed off by the shareholders (I.M.O.).

 

It is perfectly reasonable to assume that if there was a worthwhile-profit to be made on the Liverpool route then the Steam Packet would be running it. Have you got anything approaching a logical reason to think otherwise? Do you have the figures to suggest that a winter service to Liverpool would well-used and profitable?

 

Why should the profits of a privately held business go to anyone but the people who run it? That is the way every for-profit business in the World is run, and any other carrier that managed the Isle of Man routes would do exactly the same. Your opinion on what should happen to profits is laughable. The Steam Packet is obligied to invest in the fleet under the Linkspan Agreement, and is highly unlikely to break it.

 

You seem unwilling to base yourself in the real World. You accuse me of focusing on money, but, strangely enough, business focus on the pursuit of progress everyday. They do not decide "Okay, we'll pursue profit on Monday, pixie dust on a Tuesday...Wednesday it's apples, Thursday we burn the money we made on Monday, etc." If something doesn't make money, then it gets cut loose.

 

In actual fact, very much indeed has changed in the wishes of travellers in the past 175 years, which is why most people now fly. No, this is not because the Steam Packet has gotten really bad (It is, according to the Tynwald Select Committee Minutes and TravelWatch, providing a significantly better service than it was 15 years ago), but because the airlines serve a much greater variety of destinations, provide overwhelming connections to onward services and, of course, are much faster.

 

Yes, I said that there is not that much money in the freight service, but that is because we are talking about a very minor sea route to a small Island in the Irish Sea, carrying almost only consumer goods and food. Macquarie is a major investment bank. It has the financial muscle to invest in major global trade carriers. The appeal of the Steam Packet (of which only 10% is owned my Macquarie) is clearly in fact that it will be serving the Island in the very-long-term.

 

Do you have any evidence that Macquarie is taking such an intense interest in the Steam Packet as you imply? Much of the alleged decline in the service took place before they lead the purchase from SeaCo (Sale of the 30-year old Lady of Mann, a weekend service only to Liverpool (or was it only 03/04 that they provided a weekday service?))

 

Laxeyman; you haven't actually shown how the Menorcan experience is relevant to the Isle of Man, and your lack of punctuation makes your post difficult to understand. It is not a matter of 'supporting the Steam Packet' or not, it is about trying to have a constructive debate on the future of the Island's sea links. Your case seems to rest on the uneasy assumption that 'It worked there, it will work here.'

 

I am not sure what your reasoning is when you say that the lack of a winter service to Liverpool is a major dampener on the Manx economy. The Manx economy is now mostly in the services sector, whose workers, almost without exception, fly. Whilst I recgonise that there are a (small) number of business that benefitted from the Liverpool service, the fact remains that it was overwhelmingly used by people going to spend money in another jurisdiction. The Liverpool route simply does not constitute part of the Island's life line.

[Lost Login]

Has anyone seen the Questions for oral answer in the House of Keys next Tuesday?

 

Peter Karran is asking the following - good on yer Peter!

 

14. The Hon Member for Onchan (Mr Karran) to ask the Minister for

Transport –

(1) Following the questions about the User Agreement in this

House, are you aware of how many on-line Petitions there have

been about winter day trips and the lack of an all-weather fast

conventional ferry;

(2) have you had meetings with the Steam Packet to discuss these

issues, and is the Steam Packet, together with COMIN, hiding

behind the User Agreement; and

(3) if so, what have been the results of talks with the Steam Packet

Company?

 

Simple to reply to

 

1) Yes

2) Yes we have had meetings (if applicable) and no we are not hiding behind the user agreement

3) That the SP will abide by the terms of the user agreement or is he suggesting that the govt should renage on a legally binding contract which would consequently harm the reputation on the IoM both nationally and globally. I would also ask in reply if the winter route is loss making and requires govt assistance to subsidise this would he be in favour and to what level

 

Good Old Peter? No! Rather there is a band wagon lets jump on it. I can not see how the question is going to take matters forward unless it was planted by the comin so that they could make a statement under question 3 which is very unlikely

 

Questions like this wind me up to extent as I can see no intent but for PK to get his name up in lights. We would all like a better service from the SP and I am sure any workable suggestions would be welcome. To that end I know it is a pipe dream but I just wish that unless politicians have a meaningful contribution to make they would just shut up! PK is great for moaning or highlighting a problem, several million plus points, but then makes few positive workable suggestions as to a solution, several million minus points. To me it is no good saying that there is a problem with a or b if you have no alternative to a or b.

 

Listening to debates across I hear the Tories complaining that Labour have nicked their policies. Why complain? If you believe that policy suggestion or idea would improve matters then the fact that your opposition has adopted it should be seen as good as it means it will get implemented.

[Laxeyman]

Can we go to the king with his issue as a way aound it?

 

HM King Dave of the Isle of man

 

I mean there could be an Inquisition, He could over rule the user agreement, I could get my title as Sir Laxeyman, and in the end we will get a bloody service to LIVERPOOL! is this too much to ask if we live on an Island. Stuff Heysham! we always have a second best service to where nobody wants to go we need the Liverpool route and we need it either with a loss or without but we do need it.

[Laxeyman]

undefined sorry try this link

[jaybs]

If 'the majority of public opinion' have constructed an argument as ridiculous as you and almost everybody else who hates the Steam Packet has then we are all doomed. Clearly none of you have been somewhere transport provision is actually bad. Regardless, the Steam Packet is here to stay as only they can use the linkspan agreement. There is nothing anyone can do about this, unless the Steam Packet fails to meet minimum service standards, which it currently exceeds. So rather than whining, illogical and poorly-research posts about how rubbish it is, try to be more constructive.

 

 

triskelion,

 

We are all allowed opinions!, your highlighted comment beggars disbelief, "If and Almost Everyone Else", I am a little more respectful to accuse people of being "ridiculous

in their argument"

 

You are not the only person with knowledge of transport provision, study the service offered to many of the Scottish Islands. People are not against The Steam Packet it is those who pull the strings the bankers/investment bank, that do not understand local culture. The linkspan agreement you claim, nothing can be done, I disagree and I am cetrain many others will as well.

 

Regards John

[Lost Login]

. People are not against The Steam Packet it is those who pull the strings the bankers/investment bank, that do not understand local culture. The linkspan agreement you claim, nothing can be done, I disagree and I am cetrain many others will as well.

 

Regards John

Whether or not they understand local culture is probably not relevent unless by failng to undetstand they are harming their business. Well possibly they may be reputation wise but not profit wise

 

With regard to the user agreement whether anything can be done about it I do not know. What I am fairly certain is that it can not just be broken by the IoM Govt. Well not without ramifications that I am sure the Govt will not want.

 

We presumably are therefore left with renegotation which will require a carrot or a stick if not both to get the SP to enter into. The stick I believe can only be that the Govt will assist a competitor which would I presume mean financial help. That I can not see as an option the Govt will agree to as there are easier options.

 

The carrot is therefore some sort of inducement which I presume would again be financial. I can not though see the manx population or the airlines being happy for a subsidy paid to the SP.

 

Many though on this site appear to take a different view and that it can be fairly easily amended. If that is the case I will take a different view in my postings but as yet nobody has explained how that can be done. I would be graeful if you would advise.