Jehoavh Witness's Idiocy

[ans]

He doesn't know, that's why it's not suicide. Stop labouring a nonsensical semantic.

[Chinahand]

MarcusAurelius, are you really sure about this Hell thing?

 

Jesus likes it alot - or is it all allegory and poetry? What does the WatchTower say about these passages? Genuine, non ridiculing questions.

 

Matthew 5:21-22 (New International Version)

 

21"You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not murder,[a] and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.' 22But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brotherwill be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, 'Raca,[c]' is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.

[feelslikeitshould]

So does a woman who has an abortion be considered a murderer then

 

I would say....no. Abortion is less likely to be considered murder in the eyes of many than allowing your child to die by denying them a blood transfusion.

 

Religion is illogical, I have nothing against people who believe in God and most of us live our lives by some moral code that could have been derived from the Bible and a Chritian way of life, such as marriage and not committing adultery etc. But a lot of religions have either extremes in their teachings or in their interpretation, depending on how devout you choose to be. For example, some Mormons think that having many wives is the way forward, others think it's wrong and that God doesn't want that at all in modern society. Some Catholics are dead against contraception and live in a way they most people would deem abnormal, some Muslims are willing to blow themselves up, to marty themselves in the name of Islam. Some JWs will live by the exact rules that Lonan3 listed, others will pick and choose to suit but why on earth you'd choose to die by not taking blood, even of your life depended on it, is pretty extreme and abnormal. Hence the majority of people here will mock the choice or think it stupid and there seems no logical reason for anyone to follow these religions nd these ways of life, other than it is written so it must be right.

[MarcusAurelius]

MarcusAurelius, are you really sure about this Hell thing?

 

Jesus likes it alot - or is it all allegory and poetry? What does the WatchTower say about these passages? Genuine, non ridiculing questions.

 

Matthew 5:21-22 (New International Version)

 

21"You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not murder,[a] and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.' 22But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brotherwill be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, 'Raca,[c]' is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.

 

Well in the New World Translation it says 'Gehenna' as opposed to 'fire of hell'

 

And in Jesus time , Gehenna referred to the rubbish dump outside Jerusalem.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

So does a woman who has an abortion be considered a murderer then

 

It would depend on how old the foetus is. I would have thought it is murder at some point since fetilisation when the foetus becomes conscious. I would think that having an abortion when the foetus is conscious would be murder as the rights of the baby to live are now greater than the rights of the woman to abort the baby

[Chinahand]

So God does punish people in a fiery Gehenna then? Are we just talking semantics here - Gehenna vrs Hell - or are you really saying no punishment with Fire etc?

 

The parable about the rich man and Lazarus is a pretty good example - Its not the name of the place - its what is done there that interests me!

 

Luke 16:19-31 (New International Version)

 

The Rich Man and Lazarus

19"There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

22"The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23In hell,[a] where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'

 

25"But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'

 

27"He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, 28for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'

 

29"Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.'

 

30" 'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.'

 

31"He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "

 

Is God a sadistic so and so! Having viewing platforms in Heaven so the saved can see the dammed in their torment - and they then do nothing - very "Christian".

[b4mbi]

If you bothered to read through this thread you would see that I have already answered this.The Holy Scriptures ( you know the ones that are inspired of God ) indicate that when the sealing of the 144,000 is complete the end of this wicked system will come.

 

Holy Scriptures are hardly evidence! you have no proof at all, but I guess you don't need it. And don't patronise me, I have read this thread and find your attempts to justify the JW position on this issue laughable.

 

If I wrote some scriptures would you follow them blindly too?

 

When you can predict things hundreds even thousands of years in advance , then yes maybe I would follow them , however until that day , I will stick with the scriptures we have.

 

OK, I predict that in a thousand years religion will be obselete as human reason & knowledge triumphs over superstition and faith.

 

I can do better. I predict that millions and millions of years into the future, the sun will run out of fuel, and start to expand, engulfing Earth into it's firey doom.

 

both of these you can't possibly know with 100% certainty will or won't happen because neither of us will be here to rationalise any evidence, but on the balance of probability I think my prediction about the sun is a damn near certainty.

 

Where as "Holy Scriptures" are wide open to interpretation and a "pick and choose" attitute that the chances of them being accurate predictions for the future are highly improbable.

 

How about allowing women the choice of whether or not to take their pregnancy to full term?

 

Or as the original poster in this thread , you could perhaps have thought about the womans choice whether or not to have a blood transfusion or not.Or does that not suit you ?

 

 

Not once have I said that she should have been denied the choice, the point I was highlighting was that I was flabbergasted from a humanist viewpoint that she could be so selfish as to deny her family of a mother. In my view she was stupid, idiotic and selfish to refuse a life saving procedure, but never once did I deny her the choice.

[b4mbi]

All the above sounds like the design document for a World Of Warcraft expansion.

 

 

I stab you with my Holy Scriptures + 2.

 

Your Coat of Reason +3 nullifies my attack.

[MarcusAurelius]

So does a woman who has an abortion be considered a murderer then

 

I would say....no. Abortion is less likely to be considered murder in the eyes of many than allowing your child to die by denying them a blood transfusion.

 

Religion is illogical, I have nothing against people who believe in God and most of us live our lives by some moral code that could have been derived from the Bible and a Chritian way of life, such as marriage and not committing adultery etc. But a lot of religions have either extremes in their teachings or in their interpretation, depending on how devout you choose to be. For example, some Mormons think that having many wives is the way forward, others think it's wrong and that God doesn't want that at all in modern society. Some Catholics are dead against contraception and live in a way they most people would deem abnormal, some Muslims are willing to blow themselves up, to marty themselves in the name of Islam. Some JWs will live by the exact rules that Lonan3 listed, others will pick and choose to suit but why on earth you'd choose to die by not taking blood, even of your life depended on it, is pretty extreme and abnormal. Hence the majority of people here will mock the choice or think it stupid and there seems no logical reason for anyone to follow these religions nd these ways of life, other than it is written so it must be right.

 

With the greatest of respect though , people can mock all they like but they do so from a point of view of ignorance.As regards Lonan3 there is no rule that says his wife is answerable to the elders before him etc..

 

You say that in the eyes of many abortion is less likely to be considered murder as opposed to the view on blood transfusions.But that is not the point , since when has popular opinion defined what is right and wrong correctly.

 

Abortion is wrong , simple as and in my eyes anyone who has an abortion is a murderer because that life inside the woman is still a life.Just because the majority on here and life in general view Abortion as okay doesn't mean I am going to change my view on it , just as my opinion on blood will not change your view.

[bluemonday]

On the subject of sitting on your arse and letting other people shed their blood and die for you.

 

The Aug. 1, 1898 WT on page 231 says, "There is no command in the Scriptures against military service," and, "It would be quite right to shoot, not to kill."

 

The April 15, 1903 WT on page 120 says, "There could be nothing against our conscience in going into the army. Wherever we would go we could take the Lord with us, the Captain of our salvation, and wherever we would go we could find opportunities to serve him and his cause."

 

Then yet another twisting of the'way' A rethink?

 

The February 1, 1951 WT on page 73: "It is only due to conscience that [Jehovah's Witnesses] have personally and legally objected before draft boards to participating in the armed conflicts and defense programs of worldly nations."

 

A lack of consistency? The expression two faced springs to mind. Still it's safer to quote a book as an excuse than to stand up when it counts. Good job a lot of people did otherwise.

 

edit to add underneath

So God does punish people in a fiery Gehenna then? Are we just talking semantics here - Gehenna vrs Hell - or are you really saying no punishment with Fire etc?

 

The parable about the rich man and Lazarus is a pretty good example - Its not the name of the place - its what is done there that interests me!

 

I'd suggest hell was man made in the concentration camps. Nothing to do with old words in a man written book and the mysterious ways of an 'invisible friend' be he God, Jaweh, Jehovah, Allah, Humpty Dumpty or whatever'

All man made from start to finish. Man made Evil.

[Chinahand]

My sister had an ectopic pregnancy - the ovum transplanted in her fallopian tube. Her choice was a painful and unnecessary death for her - and rather obviously the loss of any opportunity for the ovum to continue developing - or to have an abortion so she could live and carry on with her life.

 

She now has 3 healthy children - are you sure abortion is wrong. Is my sister a murderer then?

 

Oh the simplicities of faith vrs the genuine ethical dilemmas of the real world - but then again this whole thread started off with a poor woman deciding to die rather than have a fullfilling life as a mother down to her faith, maybe you really do think women who have ectopic pregnancies should be left to rupture and bleed - no blood transfusions allowed.

[MarcusAurelius]

So God does punish people in a fiery Gehenna then?

 

Not that I am aware of.

 

Is God a sadistic so and so! Having viewing platforms in Heaven so the saved can see the dammed in their torment - and they then do nothing - very "Christian".

 

Isn't it.It would be bad if that was what happened.

[MarcusAurelius]

On the subject of sitting on your arse and letting other people shed their blood and die for you.

 

The Aug. 1, 1898 WT on page 231 says, "There is no command in the Scriptures against military service," and, "It would be quite right to shoot, not to kill."

 

The April 15, 1903 WT on page 120 says, "There could be nothing against our conscience in going into the army. Wherever we would go we could take the Lord with us, the Captain of our salvation, and wherever we would go we could find opportunities to serve him and his cause."

 

Then yet another twisting of the'way' A rethink?

 

The February 1, 1951 WT on page 73: "It is only due to conscience that [Jehovah's Witnesses] have personally and legally objected before draft boards to participating in the armed conflicts and defense programs of worldly nations."

 

A lack of consistency? The expression two faced springs to mind. Still it's safer to quote a book as an excuse than to stand up when it counts. Good job a lot of people did otherwise.

 

Suppose all those witnesses that died in Hitler's concentration camps didn't stand up then did they. I did also say earlier on that The Watchtower is not infallible.

 

I don't follow The Watchtower , I follow the Bible.

[ans]

Just because the majority on here and life in general view Abortion as okay

 

Whoa there hoss. Where's your evidence to back that claim up about the views of the majority on here?

 

You might be used to throwing out wild claims without evidence in your religious dealings, but you should know by now that you can't get away with it on an Internet forums

[MarcusAurelius]

My sister had an ectopic pregnancy - the ovum transplanted in her fallopian tube. Her choice was a painful and unnecessary death for her - and rather obviously the loss of any opportunity for the ovum to continue developing - or to have an abortion so she could live and carry on with her life.

 

She now has 3 healthy children - are you sure abortion is wrong. Is my sister a murderer then?

 

Oh the simplicities of faith vrs the genuine ethical dilemmas of the real world - but then again this whole thread started off with a poor woman deciding to die rather than have a fullfilling life as a mother down to her faith, maybe you really do think women who have ectopic pregnancies should be left to rupture and bleed - no blood transfusions allowed.

 

So you know she would have died do you.Maybe cheap skanks who sleep around and have abortions at the drop of a hat are okay as well.