symbilbooks Posted November 7, 2007 Share Posted November 7, 2007 O' Well too many people in the world already, takin away my fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Jampton Posted November 7, 2007 Share Posted November 7, 2007 I'm giving blood today at 5pm. See you alll there! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Take Posted November 7, 2007 Share Posted November 7, 2007 I can't answer this but can you answer this , why should this woman die from a lack of blood when my wife lost 3 pints of blood and within minutes ( approx 5 minutes ) of the Saline being administered her blood count was normal again.Why should it work for my wife and yet not for this woman ? Saline works in a very simple way , it literally expands your blood to the required level working in harmony with the bodies natural defences. Not if you've lost 8 pints of blood already it doesn't. Durr. Saline is administered as standard. But it has its limits, obviously. Once it reaches its limits, blood is the only option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Login Posted November 7, 2007 Share Posted November 7, 2007 I would not necessarilly desribe either as heroic but those who die in Iraq are doing it as a service to their country for the protection of their country or similar. I may or may not believe in the cause of those wars but the eople sent their are doing as a service for others not as a benefit for themselves The woman who made her choice made it for her own selfish reasons. I do not use the word selfish in a derogitary fashion but purely because the decision she made benefited nobody else but herself and she made the decsion in the knowledge that in her beliefs it was to her own personal advantage to follow that cause of action As Albert states later I am not sure that is really relevent in the discussion and out of contect. It does faintly amuse me though how people in the bible pick and choose what parts they believe in and what parts they do not. Which parts they take literally and which not. Basically just to fit in with their own beliefs. We can go back to the argument about stonning to death again. Oh I just remembered another difference between Iran and "your" God. One is know to exist the other is purely down to your belief. If there is a god it always seemed to be an awful cruel trick that the chances of believing in the right one depend on where you are born more than anything else. I reckon therefore that the odds of getting the right one are pretty small so I will just take my chances plus I was always taught that most gods were meant to be merciful so if I have got it wrong I will rely on that. Still waiting for an answer on my question Why is it heroic for a man to die in Iraq in service of his country http://www.decaturdaily.com/decaturdaily/n...0421/hero.shtml And yet this woman who made a choice who dies faithful to God is a bad thing ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Voice of Reason Posted November 7, 2007 Share Posted November 7, 2007 Oh I just remembered another difference between Iran and "your" God. One is know to exist the other is purely down to your belief. If there is a god it always seemed to be an awful cruel trick that the chances of believing in the right one depend on where you are born more than anything else. I reckon therefore that the odds of getting the right one are pretty small so I will just take my chances plus I was always tught that most gods were meant to be merciful so if I have got it wrong I will rely on that. You may end up choosing the wrong god but you may also choose the wrong devil so would you be OK in those circumstances? There's a few permutations available so you're probably right to take your chances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Login Posted November 7, 2007 Share Posted November 7, 2007 This is where I struggle as I have no problem anyone following whatever belief they want to as long as it harms no other. I never really approve of missionaries going off to Africa or wherever to spread the word of god when the locals are living very happy self contained lives without it. My problem with what you have written is that JW beliefs seems to have precedents over your children so that while they are to young to make their own decisions you would follow your JW belief rather than what might be best medicinally for your children. or have I got that wrong? I have my own children and I am bringing them up as I see fit , but at the end of the day when they reach an age where they can decide for themselves what they want to do and they decide its not for them , then no matter how much upset I may feel about it , its their choice , but I will tell you this , that whether they become Jehovah's Witnesses or not I will love them unconditionally and unreservedly with everything that I am and everything that I have Every decent parent loves their children unconditionally and unreservedly with everything that they are and everything they have - you don't need to be a JW to do that. Your phrase 'whether they become JWs or not' actually says paragraphs about you - to a child, such statements represent pressure, and are effectively threats about crossing a line in your life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lonan3 Posted November 7, 2007 Share Posted November 7, 2007 My wife grew up in a JW family. As a child she was unable to celebrate Christmas or Birthdays. If she received a present for either occasion she had to politely return it. She especially remembers a friend giving her a chocolate Easter egg and being made to give it back. She left as soon as he was able to (in her early teens) and was 'disfellowshipped' (I think that's the correct term) which meant that her JW friends were no longer able to spend any time with her. Her father, who was an elder of the 'church' for most of his adult life, was a true believer. He spent many hours of his own time comforting people in hospital or wherever he thought he could bring some comfort or consolation. Very near to the end of his life, he became a 'born again' christian. As he slowly died of cancer, not a single of the local JWs came to pay him a visit and only one couple dared to attend his funeral. In my opinion, they are an evil and hypocritical sect, sanctimoniously certain of the rightness of their beliefs. I loathe and despise them. When my son was a month old and, suffering from meningitis, needed a substantial blood transfusion to save his life, we had no hesitation whatsoever in agreeing to it. Today he is a healthy and energetic 10-year-old. If we had followed the beliefs the JWs tried to inculcate into my wife he would be nothing more than a sad memory. They are a rich and powerful organisation who, however much they may choose to deny it, are a thoroughly unpleasant and dangerous cult. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macmannin Posted November 7, 2007 Share Posted November 7, 2007 And the door knockers are usually teatering on the verge of a mental collapse.But keep sending the fit ones round mine,well worth the look Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DjDan Posted November 7, 2007 Share Posted November 7, 2007 Oh dear who are you the local vicar ? Hehe, funny that you should ask that.... but no. No I'm not. Like I said , are you an expert in alternatives to blood ? Not an expert... but when it comes down to the issue of "do we give a dying woman the blood that she needs? or let her die?" I think I've got a pretty good idea which choice to make. It's a shame that you do not. You can go on and debate the "alternatives" to blood... but being realistic, that isn't the point here. Perhaps in future you can ensure there are perfect alternatives available, but in this case it wasn't so. Here, it was a matter of "do I follow the letter of the law? or the spirit?". When Jesus was faced with a choice of wether or not he would "heal on the sabbath".. he chose to heal. He chose to save. He chose to enable people to live. You go back to reading the Sun or whatever newspaper it is you read and you base your expertise in this field on a few hundred words in a tabloid gutter rag Don't suppose you drink or smoke do you and you treat your body as a temple ? Nope. I do not drink. Nor do I smoke. And yes, I try to treat my body as a temple. Our scriptures teach us to 'abstain from alcohol and tabacco', but faced with a life or death situation, we know that God does not expect us to die. He would expect us to taste the alcohol (if that happened to be the lifesaver!) and once healed, to continue to live the law. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wideload Posted November 7, 2007 Share Posted November 7, 2007 isn't it a basic Christian belief about the last supper and the consumption of the "body" & "blood" of Christ? also after a quick google , oh dear it seems that the jobbo's didn't like the bible so they re-"translated" it for their own purposes.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controversies...rld_Translation Well i suppose that's fairly normal behaviour for an American founded cult (david koresh anyone?). People have the right to their own beliefs but this right should not extend to inflicting harm on others, if people want to die for their beliefs then fine but for parents to purposely allow the death of their children is sickening and the parents should be up on criminal charges. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grant Posted November 8, 2007 Share Posted November 8, 2007 When was the last case of a parent refusing blood for their child, which then died? Given this situation I can't believe this can be called anything other than murder. I can see that an adult can refuse on their own behalf, I'm find it very hard to believe they can refuse on behalf of their children. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floyd Posted November 8, 2007 Share Posted November 8, 2007 The poor children... I wonder how it will be explained to them when they are older... Daddy, Gradma and Gramps decided that Mummy should die rather than have a procedure that is performed every day and is probably safer than driving to work... If there is any investigation to be had, it should be the relatives that are investigated... Does the cult benefit from her Will? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Voice of Reason Posted November 8, 2007 Share Posted November 8, 2007 Does the cult benefit from her Will? Are they still going? I thought they disbanded years ago. Still I suppose they'll be glad of the money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
We Like The Moon Posted November 8, 2007 Share Posted November 8, 2007 The poor children... I wonder how it will be explained to them when they are older... Daddy, Gradma and Gramps decided that Mummy should die rather than have a procedure that is performed every day and is probably safer than driving to work... If there is any investigation to be had, it should be the relatives that are investigated... Does the cult benefit from her Will? I would imagine that the kids would be brainwashed into looking at their mummy (who they never had the chance to love and grow up with) as some sort of "heroic" martyr for the deluded faith that they will have rammed down their throats for the rest of their lives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinahand Posted November 8, 2007 Share Posted November 8, 2007 The poor children... I wonder how it will be explained to them when they are older... Daddy, Gradma and Gramps decided that Mummy should die rather than have a procedure that is performed every day and is probably safer than driving to work... I very much agree with that - and am more than a little fed up with MarcusAurelius' post rationalizations about the "dangers" of blood transfusions. I just wish he could be honest and admit he holds his views because of his religious faith and no matter the safety or otherwise of blood transfusions he (and other JWs) will continue to refuse to accept them on pain of banishment and exclusion from being a JW. Jewish law breaks down their prohibitions into mishpatim (laws which can be explained rationally) and chukim (laws which cannot be explained rationally) - Blood transfusions can be placed into both categories depending upon our knowledge about the particular blood been transfused - if its the wrong blood group, contains viruses etc it would be rational to reject it - but if what is being transfused IS what it says it is - ie pure blood and not blood and viruses etc, and is the right blood group then it would be irrational to reject it - especially in a life threatening situation. Everything I've read about these types of prohibitions add a caveat that if it is a life threatening situation then the prohibition can be ignored - a jew can eat pork to stop them starving etc. I can't find, and would ask any persons who are knowledgeable in such things, if there is scripture to back this up: it's always profitable to quote back! As people have said so much of the Bible is pick and choose - why disagree with Blood transfusions while agreeing that stoning people who have pre-marital sex or rapists to death is no longer the done thing - or do JW's stone people who have pre-marital sex to death? MarcusAurielius genuinely why not if having a blood transfusion is such a big thing? And of course there is the quote about the Sabbath being made for man etc Jesus used when he broke the Sabbath law - I thought Jesus was without sin? So is breaking Sabbath law sinful or not? And if it isn't why all the fuss about blood. Theology - don't you just love it. All it does is result in huge pain and suffering, pogroms, genocides and the death of an innocent young woman giving birth to twins. And even more amazingly we have MarcusAurielius [nice Pagan name that by the way - I quite like the Epicurians] trying to justify how the cause of the last point in my little list was in "God's will". Sickening. Edited: got a bit angry and carried on a bit - OPPS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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