Jehoavh Witness's Idiocy

[P.K.]

I'm already here. I'm just gonna keep myself to myself this time.

Wow, I didn't realise you were the messiah - I thought you were just a very naughty boy.

What I don't like about Jesus is his "Holier than thou" attitude!

 

With thanks to Harry.

[Lonan3]

What I don't like about Jesus is his "Holier than thou" attitude!

That's a bit harsh. Remember, he was an illegitimate baby, so his sentence really should have been deferred for social reports.

[DjDan]

you have to keep in my that every religion is taken up by choice even though in some circumstances you are born in one... you will choose to keep it or reject it as you please

 

It's easy for someone who has not been indoctrinated into a belief system to say 'but surely you can just take it or leave it'.

 

I don't think that anyone who is brought up within a 'community' where everyone follows a certain belief, one where you will be shunned by all your friends and relatives if you leave, is going to be one that you can just easily turn round and say 'nah, I don't think I will' to.

 

So no - not every religion is taken up by choice.

 

It's easy for someone who has no idea what it is like to be involved in religion to say there is no choice. But realistically... it's all about choice. If you don't like it, you leave. Simple as.

 

Heck.. if I didn't want to go to church each sunday, you think I'd be there? If I wanted out of my religion... I'd leave. I have the choice to do so. If a Jehovah's Witness wants out.... they leave. It's really not that difficult.

 

All this talk of brainwashing is stupid. It boils down to childish name calling. You don't like something... you insult it and make a mockery of it. Why? because you don't know any better, and want to convince yourselves that you know what's right.

[mollag]

It's easy for someone who has not been indoctrinated into a belief system

 

It seems such an innocent word, through much usage i suspect.

 

Any suggestions for an alternative word that really suggests the true meaning of indoctrination?

[bluemonday]

Psychological manipulation, psychological abuse, spiritual abuse, brainwashing, mind control, thought reform.

http://www.csj.org/

[Miss Take]

you have to keep in my that every religion is taken up by choice even though in some circumstances you are born in one... you will choose to keep it or reject it as you please

 

It's easy for someone who has not been indoctrinated into a belief system to say 'but surely you can just take it or leave it'.

 

I don't think that anyone who is brought up within a 'community' where everyone follows a certain belief, one where you will be shunned by all your friends and relatives if you leave, is going to be one that you can just easily turn round and say 'nah, I don't think I will' to.

 

So no - not every religion is taken up by choice.

 

It's easy for someone who has no idea what it is like to be involved in religion to say there is no choice. But realistically... it's all about choice. If you don't like it, you leave. Simple as.

 

Heck.. if I didn't want to go to church each sunday, you think I'd be there? If I wanted out of my religion... I'd leave. I have the choice to do so. If a Jehovah's Witness wants out.... they leave. It's really not that difficult.

 

All this talk of brainwashing is stupid. It boils down to childish name calling. You don't like something... you insult it and make a mockery of it. Why? because you don't know any better, and want to convince yourselves that you know what's right.

 

I'm not going down the route of arguing about brainwashing because it's been done on here before. All I'll say is that the argument of 'I can do it therefore everyone else must be able to' isn't really an argument at all, just your point of view. It's like me saying 'I've never been to the moon, therefore nobody must have been' - it's ridiculous.

[Albert Tatlock]

It's like me saying 'I've never been to the moon, therefore nobody must have been' - it's ridiculous.

...or is it?

[Lonan3]

It's easy for someone who has no idea what it is like to be involved in religion to say there is no choice. But realistically... it's all about choice. If you don't like it, you leave. Simple as.

 

Heck.. if I didn't want to go to church each sunday, you think I'd be there? If I wanted out of my religion... I'd leave. I have the choice to do so. If a Jehovah's Witness wants out.... they leave. It's really not that difficult.

 

All this talk of brainwashing is stupid. It boils down to childish name calling. You don't like something... you insult it and make a mockery of it. Why? because you don't know any better, and want to convince yourselves that you know what's right.

If you'd checked through the whole thread (I know it's a fairly long one and probably expecting a bit much) you'd have seen what I said on this subject (to make it easy its on the 4th page, post number 54) from the personal experiences of both my wife and father-in-law, who both knew exactly what it was like 'to be involved in religion.'

The use of 'disfellowship' to destroy life long friendships - in some cases to even split families - does, I'd suggest, make it something more than 'really not that difficult.'

It appears that your knowledge of your own cult is far from complete, therefore I'd suggest that your opinion on another one is utterly clueless.

Nothing personal , but you really don't know what you're talking about.

[mollag]

Psychological manipulation, psychological abuse, spiritual abuse, brainwashing, mind control, thought reform.

http://www.csj.org/

Nothing innocent about those terms, they seem to sum it up better.

[Bananaman]

I like the cut of this man's jib

 

http://www.liveleak.com/user/patcondell

 

Speaks (in my mind anyway) a lot of sense and I'm sure he's saying what most are thinking, just manages to put it more eloquently than I could.

 

His latest

 

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=ead_1195057244

[DjDan]

It's easy for someone who has no idea what it is like to be involved in religion to say there is no choice. But realistically... it's all about choice. If you don't like it, you leave. Simple as.

 

Heck.. if I didn't want to go to church each sunday, you think I'd be there? If I wanted out of my religion... I'd leave. I have the choice to do so. If a Jehovah's Witness wants out.... they leave. It's really not that difficult.

 

All this talk of brainwashing is stupid. It boils down to childish name calling. You don't like something... you insult it and make a mockery of it. Why? because you don't know any better, and want to convince yourselves that you know what's right.

If you'd checked through the whole thread (I know it's a fairly long one and probably expecting a bit much) you'd have seen what I said on this subject (to make it easy its on the 4th page, post number 54) from the personal experiences of both my wife and father-in-law, who both knew exactly what it was like 'to be involved in religion.'

The use of 'disfellowship' to destroy life long friendships - in some cases to even split families - does, I'd suggest, make it something more than 'really not that difficult.'

 

Whatever.

 

You gave some example of a 'bad experience' with religion. Therefore what exactly? You could give examples of someone having a bad experience at work.. a social group... a political party. By your same logic, you could write these off too. Bad experiences are not generally 'popular' in religion. Whilst there may be some isolated, unfortunate examples, it is not a general principle that religions "destroy life long friendships" and "split families". If you were in any way reasonable.. you'd accept that.

 

It appears that your knowledge of your own cult is far from complete, therefore I'd suggest that your opinion on another one is utterly clueless.

Nothing personal , but you really don't know what you're talking about.

 

oh please. I suppose you know more about my church than I? How stupidly ridiculous. I have studied both sides to the coin. I know how it works. I know how easy it is to walk out. I know everyone has a choice. All this talk of "indoctrination" and "brainwashing" is a joke.

 

Oh.. and just so you know.. I've read this topic. Don't be so childish to play that one with me.

[hboy]

All this talk of brainwashing is stupid.

 

For you it may be but most of the posts here are (unusually) totally rational particularly in relation to dis-fellowship etc. Once you fail to accept the brainwashing they cut you off from your friends, associates, and basically turn their back on people who they have known for years and who may have been born into the religion. That is what happens when the brainwashing fails.

 

I'm surprised you've not had the call yet on the basis of all the stupid crap you post here about your religion. THEY are always watching you know.

[Chinahand]

If a Jehovah's Witness wants out.... they leave. It's really not that difficult.

 

...

 

All this talk of brainwashing is stupid. I know how it works. I know how easy it is to walk out. I know everyone has a choice. All this talk of "indoctrination" and "brainwashing" is a joke.

 

Oh.. and just so you know.. I've read this topic. Don't be so childish to play that one with me.

 

DjDan - have you read Converts Corner on RichardDawkins.net?

 

Leaving a religion that is all encompassing - like Jehovah's Witnesses, the Mormons, various evangelical sects, and even forceful Catholicism is a hugely dislocating experience. It is regularly described as being like a divorce. Often these people's entire lives, friendships, support groups, community is based within that religion. And it is a simple fact that if you leave the church often you loose that support.

 

Few associations humanity goes in for - work, community, family - are as all embrassing as a religious group. Of course people can get over involved in their work, a political party or any of your examples - but these don't have claims on immortal souls etc - are you really saying that religion isn't an all embrassing affair and leaving it a big descision? Really? Oh come on.

[DjDan]

Few associations humanity goes in for - work, community, family - are as all embrassing as a religious group. Of course people can get over involved in their work, a political party or any of your examples - but these don't have claims on immortal souls etc - are you really saying that religion isn't an all embrassing affair and leaving it a big descision? Really? Oh come on.

 

That largely depends on how 'involved' the person is.. and more so, how 'dependent' they are on that particular social group. The same still applies to work, sports clubs and any other social groups that one associates with. If you get deeply involved and continue for many years.. leaving that group will leave you feeling much the same way as leaving a church group.

 

In most cases where a person will change 'religion'... it's generally a simple move. While there may be a loss of friendships in one corner, there is a gaining of new friendships in the other. Much like moving house! It's certainly not as bad as you are making out.

 

If I decided to leave my religion, I'd probably lose most of those friendships (purely because i wouldn't associate with them as much).. but that hardly puts me in a predicament. If you want to leave.. leave.

 

What I'm saying is... you have choice. You are not chained down.

 

Leaving a religion may be a big decision (because it's a change of you lifestyle). But that isn't because of the terrible 'disfellowship' and other religion-caused-hardships that you may face.

[fartypants]

Oh.. and just so you know.. I've read this topic. Don't be so childish to play that one with me.

Next thing he'll be saying is "my dads bigger than your dad"

When people start to lose ideas for credable argument, they start name calling. Shame on you DjDan.

 

IMHO I think that anyone who has the ability to save a CHILDS life and chooses not to, in my book is a child murderer, and as such should serve time as one. To say it is because of a belief is extreme. We all know where extremism can lead.