[BBC News] Islanders remember the war dead

[Newsbot]

People on the Isle of Man remember those who have given their lives for their countries.

 

Source : http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/-/1/hi/world/...man/7089464.stm

[nipper]

Leader of Douglas Council, David Christian, said before the service that being part of the council had opened his eyes to the sacrifices made.

 

"We always moan about what we've got but I think we are extremely lucky.

 

"I think with the conflicts in Afghanistan and Iraq, and when you see the young people losing their lives, it gets to me every time.

 

"Hopefully some good will come out of that loss in the long term. Obviously their families won't see it that way but hopefully some good will come out of it," he added.

 

It gets to me every time too.

 

It gets to me that we are even in Iraq.

 

 

But yeah, probably, maybe some good will come out of it. Won't it?

[La_Dolce_Vita]

Probably not, enough of what has happened has been so very bad.

[P.K.]

But yeah, probably, maybe some good will come out of it. Won't it?

Well, a dictator who invaded two of his neighbours, destabilised a strategically vital region and used WMD on his own people has been removed. That's not exactly bad news IMHO.

 

You have to put it in perspective. So far in Iraq and Afghanistan there have been 180 military personnel KIA. In order to keep Margaret Thatcher in 10 Downing Street we lost 255 KIA in a few weeks in the Falklands!

 

Sure it's desperately sad but some people have to make very difficult decisions and then others have to get hard, ugly things done. Not because they want to, but because they have to. Welcome to Reality World.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

But yeah, probably, maybe some good will come out of it. Won't it?

Well, a dictator who invaded two of his neighbours, destabilised a strategically vital region and used WMD on his own people has been removed. That's not exactly bad news IMHO.

 

You have to put it in perspective. So far in Iraq and Afghanistan there have been 180 military personnel KIA. In order to keep Margaret Thatcher in 10 Downing Street we lost 255 KIA in a few weeks in the Falklands!

 

Sure it's desperately sad but some people have to make very difficult decisions and then others have to get hard, ugly things done. Not because they want to, but because they have to. Welcome to Reality World.

 

I don't know what you mean by the fact that they had to?

[P.K.]

Of course you don't understand!

 

You're in complete denial that the world has lots of good people but also lots of bad people. Sometimes the only way to stop the bad guys over-running the good guys is to kill them. Fortunately for you there are those who will risk their lives and do your killing for you. The only downside is that with your state of denial you're not worth fighting for. Simple as.

 

I noticed you posted that you needed to obtain a "poppy" for Memorial Sunday which looked more like a statement to me as they're readily available everywhere. Frankly that makes you a hypocrite.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

Well, a dictator who invaded two of his neighbours, destabilised a strategically vital region and used WMD on his own people has been removed. That's not exactly bad news IMHO.

 

No, it is not bad news the result has not been good either. The destabilisation that has resulted has led to chaos with the result that thousands have died. It could be argued that it would have been better leaving Saddam where he was as at least the government was secular. Saddam's government ruled with an iron fist and did not tolerate 'sectarian' violence.

 

You're in complete denial that the world has lots of good people but also lots of bad people.

 

How do you come to that conclusion because of my opposition to Britain's role in Iraq? Or because you think that I believe that the people in the British Armed Forces are not good people?

 

I am merely questioning your opinion as to why you think there is necessity in Britain's involvement in Iraq in particular. You seem to saying that Britain's role in Iraq is that of a good guy doing the necessary killing of bad guys. As simplisitic as that is, that is not why Britain became involved and isn't why its armed forces are still fighting there. Your imply that Britain's role in the world is a force for good or is in the case of Iraq. Britain's foreign policy has for a very long time had a destabilising effect, not a particular region but across the globe.

 

I noticed you posted that you needed to obtain a "poppy" for Memorial Sunday which looked more like a statement to me as they're readily available everywhere. Frankly that makes you a hypocrite.

 

Why? Because I wanted to buy one? I am wanted to donate to the British Legion by buying a poppy given the role that it plays in looking after veterans, even though I think the work should be undertaken by government and not a charity. I also wanted to wear one as I believe it is important to remember those who died and I maybe wearing one encourages others to remember. But they obviously were not readily available, as I did not see any shops or people selling them at any time, though I didn't go on any mission to find one. I was curious as to whether there were particular chains of stores where they were always on sale.

[Alias]

There's probably better threads to discuss the politics of warfare in than one about armistice day..

[Lonan3]

There's probably better threads to discuss the politics of warfare in than one about armistice day..

The voice of sanity.... at last.

[nipper]

At the Douglas War Memorial and the Tynwald War Memorial the Freemasons laid wreaths. Probably elsewhere too.

 

I cannot come to terms with this.

 

As a civilian organisation I am sure they have every right to be represented. I simply do not see why such an organisation with secrets feels it needs to display its presence in a National ceremony remembering people who gave up their very lives so that we could live in a free and fair society.

 

It kinda rubs your nose in it.

 

Having powerful secretive organisations running in the background ain't freedom, our kid.

[mollag]

Could it be that all the whinging about their masonic privacy has made them try to be more visible, what do they have to do to please people who are not in any way associated with their society.

Anyone else you would ban from showing reverance----Catenians, St Columbans maybe, finch Hill bowlers?

 

Let them show their respect without comment.

[P.K.]

There's probably better threads to discuss the politics of warfare in than one about armistice day..

The voice of sanity.... at last.

It's a public posting forum. You can post what you like, where you like, within reason. I mean, you could even try to undercut a religious movement if you wanted to. Although I would question your sanity if you tried as in my experience fact and reason is not something they're big on.

Saddam's government ruled with an iron fist and did not tolerate 'sectarian' violence.

Saddam's government was the sectarian violence. Dear me, don't you know anything?

I am merely questioning your opinion as to why you think there is necessity in Britain's involvement in Iraq in particular. You seem to saying that Britain's role in Iraq is that of a good guy doing the necessary killing of bad guys. As simplisitic as that is, that is not why Britain became involved and isn't why its armed forces are still fighting there. Your imply that Britain's role in the world is a force for good or is in the case of Iraq. Britain's foreign policy has for a very long time had a destabilising effect, not a particular region but across the globe.

"A dictator who invaded two of his neighbours etc etc." You can spend decades reading the works of Shakespeare to three monkeys and at the end of it you'll just have - three monkeys.

Not only that but I can see a time in the not too distance future where using military power to secure a scarce vital natural resource becomes the norm. Once again "Welcome to Reality World" etc etc. You just don't get it, do you?

Why? Because I wanted to buy one? I am wanted to donate to the British Legion by buying a poppy given the role that it plays in looking after veterans, even though I think the work should be undertaken by government and not a charity. I also wanted to wear one as I believe it is important to remember those who died and I maybe wearing one encourages others to remember. But they obviously were not readily available, as I did not see any shops or people selling them at any time, though I didn't go on any mission to find one. I was curious as to whether there were particular chains of stores where they were always on sale.

I don't believe you. You're like the women who used to knit socks for "those poor men at the front" and then completely ignored them in peacetime. After all, they're only working class lads who are there because they couldn't get a better paid job elsewhere. Aren't they?

[P.K.]

At the Douglas War Memorial and the Tynwald War Memorial the Freemasons laid wreaths. Probably elsewhere too.

 

I cannot come to terms with this.

 

As a civilian organisation I am sure they have every right to be represented. I simply do not see why such an organisation with secrets feels it needs to display its presence in a National ceremony remembering people who gave up their very lives so that we could live in a free and fair society.

 

It kinda rubs your nose in it.

 

Having powerful secretive organisations running in the background ain't freedom, our kid.

Seconded. It's a measure of their influence that they can commandeer a slot to lay "their" wreath. What a sick joke. The nods at the sharp end are not doing it to maintain the Freemasons secretive world of privilege, that's for sure.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

Saddam's government was the sectarian violence. Dear me, don't you know anything?

 

Yes, I would agree, Saddam's genocidal campaigns against the Kurds were sectarian.

 

 

Not only that but I can see a time in the not too distance future where using military power to secure a scarce vital natural resource becomes the norm.

 

Do you not think it is the norm already? If weaker states are not compliant with the West then force is often used. The Iraq War, the Gulf War, and the Suez Crises are good examples.

 

"A dictator who invaded two of his neighbours etc etc." You can spend decades reading the works of Shakespeare to three monkeys and at the end of it you'll just have - three monkeys.

Once again "Welcome to Reality World" etc etc. You just don't get it, do you?

 

If it really is the case that I am not 'getting it' I would love to find out exactly what I am not getting here. You tend to spend more time prattling on about some awareness of the facts that you have and awareness that I lack.

[The Voice of Reason]

You can spend decades reading the works of Shakespeare to three monkeys and at the end of it you'll just have - three monkeys.

 

........and the works of Shakespeare