Alan Bell Against Id Cards?

[Cronky]

Alan Bell speaking on Manx Radio about ID cards and the 'disks' fiasco:

 

CLIP

 

Can anyone explain why the Isle of Man cannot just say NO to ID cards and leave it at that?

[ans]

For exactly the same reasons they can't just say YES and leave it at that.

[Dodger]

For exactly the same reasons they can't just say YES and leave it at that.

 

Our data is safe as houses with government!

 

That's the point it can be lost, stolen and generally misused! Confidence in the government being able to safely store all our data in one place is NIL! This is what the UK government are looking to do with the National Identity Register (NIR). This is presumably what the IOM government would do if they followed the UK as they generally do, I hope that the don't with this.

 

Bill Malarkey is of the opinion that a type of ID card will be needed for Manx residents!

 

It will be an interesting debate! Pity that Manx radio don't do listen again to Tynwald!

 

Petition anyone.........

[ai_Droid]

Alan Bell speaking on Manx Radio about ID cards and the 'disks' fiasco:

CLIP

Can anyone explain why the Isle of Man cannot just say NO to ID cards and leave it at that?

 

Ahh, more misinformation.

 

He didn't say he was against ID cards at all. He said the UK government had jeapardised the principle of ID cards because of the fuckup. A vastly different statement, tin hatter.

[Cronky]

ANS, your point is a fair one.

 

My point is that we are entitled to know what the issues with the UK are over ID cards.

 

I have no need of an 'ID Card' and do not want one. My passport lets me in and out of the UK Common Travel area and it's not even biometric. The status quo is working fine here in the Isle of Man so why change things?

 

Given the fiasco of the UK losing 25,000,000 folks personal data I do not intend to give them any more information than I absolutely have to. Certainly not my fingerprints or DNA. It seems the Government here has reacted sensibly to the issue of data loss. It would be nice if they just tapped the ID card thing on the head and said 'we're not having them'.

[ai_Droid]

That's the point it can be lost, stolen and generally misused! Confidence in the government being able to safely store all our data in one place is NIL! This is what the UK government are looking to do with the National Identity Register (NIR). This is presumably what the IOM government would do if they followed the UK as they generally do, I hope that the don't with this.

 

Some simple points:

 

- the uk doesn't store all the data in one place

- perhaps if it did, it would be more secure?

- they have all this data anyway, spread about different departments, what difference does an ID card actually make?

[triskelion]

I think Bill Malarky specifically said that Manx people might find themselves restricted if they were to go to the UK without an ID card.

 

I can understand why Bell wouldn't want to come down on either side - If he comes down in favour he risks taking flak other data protection and civil rights, and if comes out against only to reach a situation later where we actually need them then that doesn't help much either. I also think that any position he were to take would be largely artificial anyway, as the issue is really in the debating stage.

 

IMO, since biometric passports are going to be required soon, Tynwald should just leave it at that. If people want to go somewhere that insists that information is supplied that they will need a passport. If people don't want someone having that information then they just won't be able to travel, which is up to them.

[Mr. Sausages]

Here we go again...

[ans]

I don't think you will find them making a blanket statement either way, given the current climate.

 

I actually agree that this is not the right time to introduce them, that questions need to be asked, assurances given and procedures and policies changed. If they can demonstrate that they can do it securely, then I support it. That's always been my position.

 

Also, your passport has a photo on it. It's biometric already.

[triskelion]

Okay maybe we can all just accept that the reason "the Isle of Man cannot just say NO to ID cards and leave it at that" is that their is no need or point in doing so at this moment in time?

 

PS: I honestly never realised that the photo is obviously biometric. *places palm on forehead*

[Cronky]

Good Evening Droid? How are you doing?

 

The thread title is: 'Alan Bell Against Id Cards?'

 

I.e. it is a question not a statement!.

 

I was just wondering . . . Could we get through this debate without making personal attacks?

 

I'm willing if your willing . . .

 

My passport, by the way, is not biometric. I gather they now scan your iris in Douglas but my passport came with the ark and I'm so old it's probably not worth renewing.

[Dodger]

Photo's and signatures are biometrics and have been around for a long time, they can also be changed, I can amend my features by growing a beard, moustache, long, short hair. Signatures change when a woman gets married, by depoll, divorced etc. Other Biometrics like fingerprints, iris scans and DNA canot be changed, they can still be copied though! Especially if we use the technology online.

[Ushtey]

Photo's and signatures are biometrics and have been around for a long time, they can also be changed, I can amend my features by growing a beard, moustache, long, short hair.

 

Neither my passport photo nor my driving licence photo show my beard, yet when I pass through airport customs they have yet to question the difference. Mind you, Gatwick airport security did get very upset that my half empty aftershave bottle was 25ml over the limit. When I asked for a receipt that they had confiscated it things got very serious.

 

I'm confused as to why people form the IoM would be at a disadvantage in the UK if they didn't have an ID card though. Surely the driving licence and/or various other forms of ID most of us carry around would suffice, or will all visitors to the UK who don't have ID cards be given temporary visitor cards on entry?

[Cronky]

I'm confused as to why people form the IoM would be at a disadvantage in the UK if they didn't have an ID card though.

 

A very good point. The Common Travel area has previously allowed passport free travel accross the geographic British Isles. However, with the introduction of the UK E-Borders legislation the arrangements are seemingly going to change. I.e. in theory, you will need a passport to cross from Southern Ireland to Ulster. As this is difficult to enforce it seems there will be a passport check between the mainland and Ulster which is, of course, part of the UK! This should not change the arrangements between the Crown Dependencies and the UK. However . . . The legislation is very complex and the final implications are not clear.

 

However, if they required a passport check between the Isle of Man and Heysham / Liverpool that might get quite restrictive.

 

We are not presently inconvenienced by the present arrangements of the Common Travel Area and I hope the Isle of Man Government sticks up for our existing freedoms.

[John Wright]

I think you all miss two points

 

1. If we have a population limit with a population register on which is listed everyone entitled to live in IOM the only way of dealing with that, realistically, is that everyone will be issued with a card, what you call it, ID card, population register card etc matters not. The consensus seems to favour a population ceiling and thus a register and thus an identifier

 

What is certain is that if information is centralised by reference to that card and its number we have to be careful of the control over the data, ie data protection has to be good

 

2. ID cards are nothing directly to do with passports and travel. Lets not mix them up.

 

At present in the British Isles for historic reasons, a, never had ID cards except in national emergency and b, until partition of Ireland one country for nationality purposes, we have had free unlimited travel without documents.

 

In Europe you used to have to produce your passport at most borders, there were groups, Benelux, eg with common controls, so you didn't, as you went from one to the other, their own common travel area. They then developed Schengen, which Uk stayed out of , an enlarged common travel area with no need to show passports as you cross borders. In fact the borders were more important for paper work about customs duties and VAT than about who went where but custioms has has gone anyway for trdae goods.

 

Remember if you are a british national, Citizen UK or Citizen British Islands, or Irish citizen you don't actually need a passport to enter or leave the Common Travel area from a third country, as we are not required to carry ID. You have to convince immigration, if asked, to prove who you are. If you are a white well educated speaker of the queens english it is not a prolem, trust me I've done it several times. I wouldn't try it if I were a none caucasian mind.

 

In most of Europe you have to carry ID and produce it on demand. Under English/IOM/Irish law the authorities have never been able to demand that you justify to them and their representatives who you are and why you are there.

 

Most countries do not demand passpports to travel in Europe, just an ID card. I am happy with one document, with bio metrics, to use as pasport, driving licence, bank account opener, medical card, resident card, etc etc. What I am not ahppy about is big brother having the right to see it if I have done nothing wrong and watching my movements. As long as I have the document why should they wish to record my movements. I will happily produce it, but don't want the details recorded.

 

We have to carry Passports to function as ID cards when abroad in Europe (and further afield) where ID is necessary).

 

We have to have passports to enter the US, they legally require them and are now demanding that they have biometric data encoded into them, of course 80% US citizens do not have pssports and they do not have ID cards.

 

Airlines have required picture ID because the US has made them do so. they are reluctant to carry passengers without a passport or ID card into UK as they have to pay to take you back if you are refused entry

 

If the Common Travel area goes we will clearly have to produce passports as we go into Ireland. It should not apply to UK or Channel Islands. We will still be able to enter freely, of course the airlines and ferry companies may want to inspect.

 

As for the need to have IOM ID cards if the UK has them, its simple, think about the following situation.

 

You are manx, go for a day out in UK and are stopped and asked to produce your ID card, you will either have to produce a passport or a manx ID card or face arrest.

 

None of it will stop terrorists but it will allow the government to watch us. Why do they want to know, and howlong before it gets to the position of 1984 or East Germany?

 

and finally our own breach of Data Protection

 

All mail to DHSS benefits is opened and sorted by post office employees at the Post Office sorting office. Have you agreed to forms with your confidential data being exposed in that way?