samsungman Posted November 28, 2007 Share Posted November 28, 2007 I quite like the idea of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted November 28, 2007 Share Posted November 28, 2007 2. ID cards are nothing directly to do with passports and travel. Lets not mix them up. At present in the British Isles for historic reasons, a, never had ID cards except in national emergency and b, until partition of Ireland one country for nationality purposes, we have had free unlimited travel without documents. In Europe you used to have to produce your passport at most borders, there were groups, Benelux, eg with common controls, so you didn't, as you went from one to the other, their own common travel area. They then developed Schengen, which Uk stayed out of , an enlarged common travel area with no need to show passports as you cross borders. In fact the borders were more important for paper work about customs duties and VAT than about who went where but custioms has has gone anyway for trdae goods. Remember if you are a british national, Citizen UK or Citizen British Islands, or Irish citizen you don't actually need a passport to enter or leave the Common Travel area from a third country, as we are not required to carry ID. You have to convince immigration, if asked, to prove who you are. If you are a white well educated speaker of the queens english it is not a prolem, trust me I've done it several times. I wouldn't try it if I were a none caucasian mind. In most of Europe you have to carry ID and produce it on demand. Under English/IOM/Irish law the authorities have never been able to demand that you justify to them and their representatives who you are and why you are there. Most countries do not demand passpports to travel in Europe, just an ID card. I am happy with one document, with bio metrics, to use as pasport, driving licence, bank account opener, medical card, resident card, etc etc. What I am not ahppy about is big brother having the right to see it if I have done nothing wrong and watching my movements. As long as I have the document why should they wish to record my movements. I will happily produce it, but don't want the details recorded. We have to carry Passports to function as ID cards when abroad in Europe (and further afield) where ID is necessary). This is mostly true however it is NOT true that you can travel freely in the EU and that you do not have to produce your id card. It has always been the case that all other EU citizens entering the UK have to produce their ID card as it is used instead of a passport. I have also been stopped in a police roadblock several miles into France on exiting Spain. All id's were checked. Quite a few EU countries will also still demand id, either id card for EU cits or passports for Brits, when checking into a hotel. They still have coppers collecting up the details every evening going around the hotels on mopeds. God knows what they do with them. The argument seems to run "If you've done nothing wrong you have nothing to be afraid of" against the "I don't like the idea that the authorities know where I am and what I am up to and where does it all end?" Cue Albert Tatlock.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slim Posted November 28, 2007 Share Posted November 28, 2007 This is mostly true however it is NOT true that you can travel freely in the EU and that you do not have to produce your id card. Isn't that exactly what John said? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Wright Posted November 28, 2007 Share Posted November 28, 2007 I think PK and I are highlighting totally different points Within the boundaries of Schengen, there are no pasport or ID checks at the internal borders, its just a big EU common travel area.... but as you have to carry ID you can be asked for it anywhere, any time, any place. That is not about borders but about Id checks UK is not part of Schengen so we do have checks. But for British nationals and Irish nationals you are not legally required to have a passport or other official ID to enter or leave the common travel area Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dodger Posted November 29, 2007 Share Posted November 29, 2007 You have to pay for your passport at present, with the possible introduction of an ID card as well, you will also have to pay for that as well, costing more than a passport! You will still need a passport for travel outside of the common area! Therefore you need both if this is made compulsary...........Maybe if it was brought in on a opt in if you would like to rather than the imposing of it, it may get a better reception. I personally would go for a passport, but not for an ID card and yes I do take it with me when going to Southern Island or Europe! Babbs, I wouldn't classify that as a beard! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grianane Posted November 29, 2007 Share Posted November 29, 2007 Personally I'd be quite happy to carry an ID and to be required ot use it to access the health and scial services, housing, benefits etc etc. At least that would ensure that only those entitled to these services could avail themselves of them. There are too many illegals here already. In June I was told a sorry tale by a local hotelier that 2 foreign staff had walked out just before TT to work in another hotel. He was winging that they we illegal and was half tempted to report them as illegals but had actually been paying them in cash for 6 months already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guardone Posted November 29, 2007 Share Posted November 29, 2007 A few points, The DHSS mail is usually opened by the post office, that is news to me, it breaks data protection laws as it gives info to the post office which they should not posess. However on security grounds, the government in the UK has always had the option to open and read your mail, as the Royal mail is a state agent, despite attempts to make it self sufficient, and I am confident that the IOM post ofice is in the same category. To reiterate the basic arguements. The UK government is telling the people they must join the ID scheme, and face major penalties for non compliance. They forget that the government works for the people, not to control them. This is just a major control system and the benefits, a few, are not worth the billions of cost and inconvenience. When the Stasi of East Germany clsoed down, there were rooms full of mailbags of information that had never been opened. This police state will have electronic access but will still be swamped by inaccurate information and open to hundreds of criminally minded government employees, plus a few stupid ones. As shown recently, the politicians have no idea how a major database works and the inherent problems it creates. The sooner they swallow the shame of waste so far and drop the scheme, the better. Both Ireland and the IOM should declare they have no plans to cooperate or subject their citizens to the invasive systems proposed by HM gov. The UK should also have stood up to the USA and said we are not cooperating with your demands , and if we cannot enter the USA, that is your (USA) loss. Visitors to the usa can still make their id known to Congress if they so wish, it is supposed to be a FREE country. Our ancestors fought in 2 wars to keep these islands free of foreign domination and to maintain our way of life. We disrespect them if we allow the bullies to control us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ans Posted November 29, 2007 Share Posted November 29, 2007 s the Royal mail is a state agent, despite attempts to make it self sufficient, and I am confident that the IOM post ofice is in the same category. Your confidence is misplaced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dodger Posted November 29, 2007 Share Posted November 29, 2007 Personally I'd be quite happy to carry an ID and to be required ot use it to access the health and scial services, housing, benefits etc etc. At least that would ensure that only those entitled to these services could avail themselves of them. There are too many illegals here already. In June I was told a sorry tale by a local hotelier that 2 foreign staff had walked out just before TT to work in another hotel. He was winging that they we illegal and was half tempted to report them as illegals but had actually been paying them in cash for 6 months already. The benefits of the proposed use of the ID cards is not worth the loss of privacy, potential misuse or loss of data. Whether it is requested by the UK and the whole folder on a person is sent electronically or via hard disk. When we had troubles with the IRA, did we suddenly have ID cards? Now we have other terrorists we suddenly need them, who then wins? We loose our fundimental rights are being erroded unnecessarily............. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cronky Posted November 29, 2007 Author Share Posted November 29, 2007 John, thanks very much for your detailed post. You wrote: If the Common Travel area goes we will clearly have to produce passports as we go into Ireland. It should not apply to UK or Channel Islands. We will still be able to enter freely, of course the airlines and ferry companies may want to inspect. As the UK is not going to impose a passport check between Eire and Ulster there will have to be a passport check between Ulster and the mainland UK. I.e: within the UK itself. As you can cross from the UK to the Isle of Man without a passport this means there will be a passport check between Douglas and Belfast. It just requires one further change to the Common Travel Area for there to be a passport check between Douglas and the rest of the UK. That would be a significant change to our status. As for the need to have IOM ID cards if the UK has them, its simple, think about the following situation. You are manx, go for a day out in UK and are stopped and asked to produce your ID card, you will either have to produce a passport or a manx ID card or face arrest. Presently the UK authorities can stop you at Heysham and Liverpool and ask for some kind of ID. If you fail to produce it they can detain you and question you for (I think) 7 hours. Catch 22, You don't need ID unless they stop you and ask for it. By default, you need ID ! Earlier this year we were accross with the car and missed the ferry home. We put up in a Travelodge for the night. I elected to pay cash (£50) for the room. Before they would not check us in without taking the details of my Manx driving licence. Again, by default, no ID - no hotel room! This experience was thoroughly creepy. A family were not alllowed to bunk down for the night without someone logging our details on a database. It's a police state but the mechanisims are, at the moment, subtle. If the UK gets it's way with ID cards we will all have our lives logged and catalogued for the authorities to peep at. However, with the 'discs' fiasco the public have woken up to the dangers of the authorities holding lots of information about us on huge databases. Thankfully the Conservatives and Liberal Democrats are firmly against the scheme and Gordon Brown seems very weak these days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slim Posted November 29, 2007 Share Posted November 29, 2007 If the UK gets it's way with ID cards we will all have our lives logged and catalogued for the authorities to peep at. However, with the 'discs' fiasco the public have woken up to the dangers of the authorities holding lots of information about us on huge databases. Thankfully the Conservatives and Liberal Democrats are firmly against the scheme and Gordon Brown seems very weak these days. Ironically, the discs fiasco is actually a case for a centralised database, not against it. It's far easier to secure a central database than a whole bunch of separate ones like exists now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keyboarder Posted November 29, 2007 Share Posted November 29, 2007 Lost data, ID cards, just where will it end Mr Bell? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ushtey Posted November 30, 2007 Share Posted November 30, 2007 Given how many people mention that they saw me when I "was in town the other day" or "heard that [something] had happened", I can only assume the ID cards would be for those new to the Island. I can just see the local bobby in Andreas or Jurby, excuse me Mr Kelly, can I see your ID card please, no that's your driving licence yessir the other ID card, noooo that's your farmer's union card the other ID card card. Again, not that one, that's your Shoprite clubman card. What? No ID card? Well then Mr Kelly, I'm afraid I'm going to have to take you down the station until we can sort out who you really are. Don't worry, I'll pop back and let your wife know when we've got you settled with a nice cup of tea. Want me to collect the kids from school on my way past? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert Tatlock Posted November 30, 2007 Share Posted November 30, 2007 Given how many people mention that they saw me when I "was in town the other day" or "heard that [something] had happened", I can only assume the ID cards would be for those new to the Island. I can just see the local bobby in Andreas or Jurby, excuse me Mr Kelly, can I see your ID card please, no that's your driving licence yessir the other ID card, noooo that's your farmer's union card the other ID card card. Again, not that one, that's your Shoprite clubman card. What? No ID card? Well then Mr Kelly, I'm afraid I'm going to have to take you down the station until we can sort out who you really are. Don't worry, I'll pop back and let your wife know when we've got you settled with a nice cup of tea. Want me to collect the kids from school on my way past? I didn't think the pubs were open this early? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ushtey Posted November 30, 2007 Share Posted November 30, 2007 Babbs, I wouldn't classify that as a beard! Just spotted this. What's wrong with my beard, I'm very attached to it! And Albert, I wouldn't know about the pubs, I hardly drink these days. Still, I guess it was a little too early for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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