A Necessary Education?

[La_Dolce_Vita]

It shows that college and education as a whole is less about people expanding their minds, exploring their interests, than about making sure they can win that business deal.

[Lonan3]

Education is – or should be – about preparing young people for life in the real world. That is to say, the world in which they will have to compete for decent jobs; in which they may have to provide for partners and children and in which the techniques used to develop their abilities to learn and progress will be constantly employed throughout their working lives regardless of the career they choose for themselves.

Expanding minds and exploring interests is part of this process, and one which there are more opportunities to continue through further education or development of hobbies and pastimes than ever before.

Although much of what is detailed in the article is unnecessarily arcane, a knowledge of the basic concepts of etiquette does, I believe, enable people to interract with greater confidence in social settings.

[Gladys]

Although much of what is detailed in the article is unnecessarily arcane, a knowledge of the basic concepts of etiquette does, I believe, enable people to interract with greater confidence in social settings.

Agree totally. It is more than basic manners (please, thank you, excuse me etc), but is more to do with having the confidence to deal with formal social situations.

 

Basic manners are deferential, basic etiquette is more about putting yourself on the same level as those around you.

[Tempus Fugit]

so how does this work then ?

they should talk to people on their left during the first course and on their right during the main course

 

you are there sitting at the dinner table trying to talk to the person on your left who is ignoring you as he is talking to the person on his left, and the chap on your right is trying to talk to you, and you are ignoring him as it's not main course yet !

 

eh ?

[La_Dolce_Vita]

Education is – or should be – about preparing young people for life in the real world. That is to say, the world in which they will have to compete for decent jobs; in which they may have to provide for partners and children and in which the techniques used to develop their abilities to learn and progress will be constantly employed throughout their working lives regardless of the career they choose for themselves.

Expanding minds and exploring interests is part of this process, and one which there are more opportunities to continue through further education or development of hobbies and pastimes than ever before.

Although much of what is detailed in the article is unnecessarily arcane, a knowledge of the basic concepts of etiquette does, I believe, enable people to interract with greater confidence in social settings.

 

In the world of today where work governs people's lives I would agree, that is what education is for. Preparation for the world of work. When entering into the business conformity is paramount. The culture of the business world dominates those who enter it and something you have to be part of or you just don't fit in or don't do well. So education today is not about the individuals needs but rather the current needs of business.

 

I agree that a lot of it does seem arcane although the article does qualify that it is for formal situations. It does depend on where people are heading in their life or where their parents want them to be in the future. Such etiquette as mentioned in the article is simply unnecessary to the vast majority of people. That would certainly be a waste of education. Is it really important who you talk to depending on the course, or whether you cut or break bread.

 

But the fact it that this is a public school and the business, executive world it aims to place its students. It is all about the class and the social mores that are held in this class.

It would not be a sad time if etiquette disappeared but manners are a different thing. I think people should show respect and be respectful of others but not in a 'set in stone' way as with antiquated etiquette.

[P.K.]

So chinless wonder Richard Cairns, headmaster of an £18k per annum private school, claims that "Good manners and etiquette at formal dinners is a deal-breaker in the business world". Oh really? After spending his entire 39 years cloistered in academia just how would he know? Oh sorry, it's based on "a report that was published not long ago saying that employers were put off by the number of undergraduates not equipped for the business world". So it's not just Cairns spouting off what he thinks his fee-paying parents want to hear. So that's all right then!

 

What complete and utter claptrap. Of course, courtesy costs nothing so good manners should be the norm. Unfortunately I pour scorn on the feminist movement by letting women go first, holding the door open for them, giving up my seat for them and so forth - terrible eh? As to table manners the last thing I want is my meal ruined by having to sit opposite some jerk who crams it in, talks loudly with their mouth full, uses foul language, helps themselves with their fingers and so forth. You know the sort, the ones who think that they should poor scorn on their fellow diners for the way their "outmoded" good manners are simply a sign of respect for those they are eating with, especially the ladies. Basically their boorish behaviour is a right royal pain in the arse.

 

Outside of the buddies success in business has always depended on three key factors - skills, knowledge and behaviours. Of course their deployment is crucial. There is no point in having the knowledge to run rings around the people you are dealing with unless you have the skills and behaviours to recognise that all work is honourable and you should value the opinions of those around you - because no-one likes a smart-arse! You also have to treat everyone in an organisation, from the top to the bottom, with fairness and respect. Not so long ago British management was getting a reputation for being the worst around, mainly because of the scorn they had for those on the shop floor. So the only voice the workers got was via the Trade Unions which just led to conflict. The late lamented Harvey-Jones made the point that those at the coalface are vitally important to business success as they are the ones actually generating the revenue. So if you don't pay attention to them you're in trouble.

 

(I was privileged to attend a seminar where Harvey-Jones told Thatcher to her face that she was the worst thing that ever happened to British manufacturing. During this unflattering tirade, knowing we were all looking at her for a reaction, Thatcher wore a slight smile which didn't reach her eyes and her face was carved in stone! However you could feel that all her hate glands were going on full power - I can put it no other way.)

 

Anyway, it sounds to me that Cairns dangerously believes that his highly privileged charges can ignore the workers and only need good table manners to succeed in business i.e. he's well and truly living in the bad old days and is encouraging their return. Unless, of course, the headmaster of a top fee-paying school is a Freemason! Surely not....

[The Old Git]

so how does this work then ?

 

Hmmm.. good point

[mollag]

The hub of the matter is "a top fee paying school" the guy is a businesman selling a product with a snob/elitist factor, so he just panders to the expectations of his customers. Not to be taken seriously, he is hardly an independant expert.

[Lonan3]

Outside of the buddies success in business has always depended on three key factors - skills, knowledge and behaviours.

 

Anyway, it sounds to me that Cairns dangerously believes that his highly privileged charges can ignore the workers and only need good table manners to succeed in business

I've no argument with most of your post, but the two points I've quoted seem to indicate suggest that you're being just a little bit selective.

I don't think there is any suggestion that only good table manners are required to succeed in business, but that learning the expected/required skills, knowledge and behaviours. for such social events can, at times, provide some advantage.

[P.K.]

I don't think there is any suggestion that only good table manners are required to succeed in business, but that learning the expected/required skills, knowledge and behaviours. for such social events can, at times, provide some advantage.

Well, firstly unless you're in a Lodge there's no such thing as a free lunch. Secondly your own good manners would only give you a superficial advantage over the less attractive behaviours (why the bold L3?) of some others. Face it, if they've got the product and the price even if they had habits that would make a monkey blush you would be doing your own company down if you didn't deal with them. I've also found that at the bottom of a lot of company's success is a barrow-boy. C'est la vie.

 

Of course, at the Ambassador's party I know exactly how to behave when the Ferrero Roche tray does the rounds....

[La_Dolce_Vita]

So chinless wonder Richard Cairns, headmaster of an £18k per annum private school, claims that "Good manners and etiquette at formal dinners is a deal-breaker in the business world". Oh really? After spending his entire 39 years cloistered in academia just how would he know? Oh sorry, it's based on "a report that was published not long ago saying that employers were put off by the number of undergraduates not equipped for the business world". So it's not just Cairns spouting off what he thinks his fee-paying parents want to hear. So that's all right then!

 

What complete and utter claptrap. Of course, courtesy costs nothing so good manners should be the norm. Unfortunately I pour scorn on the feminist movement by letting women go first, holding the door open for them, giving up my seat for them and so forth - terrible eh? As to table manners the last thing I want is my meal ruined by having to sit opposite some jerk who crams it in, talks loudly with their mouth full, uses foul language, helps themselves with their fingers and so forth. You know the sort, the ones who think that they should poor scorn on their fellow diners for the way their "outmoded" good manners are simply a sign of respect for those they are eating with, especially the ladies. Basically their boorish behaviour is a right royal pain in the arse.

 

Outside of the buddies success in business has always depended on three key factors - skills, knowledge and behaviours. Of course their deployment is crucial. There is no point in having the knowledge to run rings around the people you are dealing with unless you have the skills and behaviours to recognise that all work is honourable and you should value the opinions of those around you - because no-one likes a smart-arse! You also have to treat everyone in an organisation, from the top to the bottom, with fairness and respect. Not so long ago British management was getting a reputation for being the worst around, mainly because of the scorn they had for those on the shop floor. So the only voice the workers got was via the Trade Unions which just led to conflict. The late lamented Harvey-Jones made the point that those at the coalface are vitally important to business success as they are the ones actually generating the revenue. So if you don't pay attention to them you're in trouble.

 

(I was privileged to attend a seminar where Harvey-Jones told Thatcher to her face that she was the worst thing that ever happened to British manufacturing. During this unflattering tirade, knowing we were all looking at her for a reaction, Thatcher wore a slight smile which didn't reach her eyes and her face was carved in stone! However you could feel that all her hate glands were going on full power - I can put it no other way.)

 

Anyway, it sounds to me that Cairns dangerously believes that his highly privileged charges can ignore the workers and only need good table manners to succeed in business i.e. he's well and truly living in the bad old days and is encouraging their return. Unless, of course, the headmaster of a top fee-paying school is a Freemason! Surely not....

 

I agree completely.

 

(though in mentioning the feminist movements, it is not the feminist who began the customer of expecting men to hold open doors, giving up your seat, etc. Those behaviours are the product of the male chauvinistic world. It is feminists who oppose them.)

[The Voice of Reason]

so how does this work then ?

they should talk to people on their left during the first course and on their right during the main course

 

you are there sitting at the dinner table trying to talk to the person on your left who is ignoring you as he is talking to the person on his left, and the chap on your right is trying to talk to you, and you are ignoring him as it's not main course yet !

 

eh ?

 

What if it's a rectangular table?. People sat on the end would only be able to converse for one course.

[mollag]

Manners and etiquette tends to be a past device, what was done then, so now the same. As we progress though new areas of etiquette should appear.

So do we have the definitive etiquette for the mobile phone?

Is it ok to stop your car and block half the road to answer your phone?

Is it ok to have a personal conversation in a public place?.

Is it ok for shop assistants to break from dealing with you to answer their phone?

 

No doubt there are other examples of "impolite behavoir" with mobiles.

[John Wright]

I am most concerned that any one should think of using a so called fish knife. How non U can you get. How common, how vulgar. The Lord of Mann does not use fish knives! Bet the King does however, especially for prawn cocktails.