Cronky Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 No, they don't appear to collect much more information than a passport anyway. I see them as pointless if they're not compulsary for all, regardless of passport. So, are you against compulsory ID Cards? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ai_Droid Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 So, are you against compulsory ID Cards? Depends on the detail, but not in principle no. I'm be in favour of them if the benefits were worth it, but if they're not compulsary they're not really worth doing at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert Tatlock Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 I'm not rattled, I just think it's amusing that you berate people for towing a certain line, while doling out phrases other people have told you to use. I don't bother with these discussions any more because it's a waste of time debating with someone so close minded. Carry on! Closed mind? As a person who lives and works on both the island and in the UK, then if you are eluding to my beliefs that: The government cannot be trusted when it comes to storing our information (I have my biometrics to hide, but fear they will lose them). The relationship between the individual and state should not be reversed, the state is there to serve the people. The ID card scheme will control British life in ways that most of us can't even imagine yet. Civil liberties should be respected, as should the millions of British lives lost in recent history - fighting and dying to protect what people are so willing to currently throw away these days without assessing the consequences. People should be treated as innocent before guilty. No one party should not have full power with only 36% of the actual vote (and get 57% of seats) - in a system where 39% didn't even vote in 2005, and only 22% of voters actually voted for them. The removal of the rights to: trial by jury in certain cases; the right to silence; the right not to be punished until a court has decided that the law has been broken; the right to demonstrate and protest; the right to travel without surveillance and the details of that journey being retained - all set dangerous precedents. The empowering of the police to arrest someone for any offence (e.g. dropping litter), and being able to fingerprint, photograph and sample DNA for indefinite retention on a police database. ...which are just a few of my concerns, which have become legislation driven through parliament using IMO the fear of: terrorism, anti social behaviour, asylum seekers and benefit fraud. If you think I have a closed mind, then you are damn right my mind is closed in many ways to such fascist crap...and I will consitantly continue to berate those who support it and naively argue for more of the same. When it comes to discussions on these topics, they may be debatable, but my position is not negotiable, and my own views are well thought-out and are my own fundamental beliefs (just who are these other people you think have told me to 'dole out phrases' anyway?). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ai_Droid Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 Yes, Belgium, Finland, Italy, Greece, Spain, Sweden, all hotbeds of government oppression and fascism.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert Tatlock Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 Yes, Belgium, Finland, Italy, Greece, Spain, Sweden, all hotbeds of government oppression and fascism.... But the difference is, they do not do with data, what this UK government proposes to do with data. There you go again, cherry picking one item in the list and ignoring the whole. You ought to do a little a lot more research into how these countries operate with their data, and have dealt legislatively with the issues of terrorism and the issues of civil liberties, before firing off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cronky Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 QUOTE(Cronky @ Jan 21 2008, 09:51 AM) So, are you against compulsory ID Cards? Depends on the detail, but not in principle no. I'm be in favour of them if the benefits were worth it, but if they're not compulsary they're not really worth doing at all. So, what punishment should the State apply to people like me who will refuse to have an ID Card? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ans Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 Who's rattled now Albert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert Tatlock Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 Who's rattled now Albert A predictable response. But at least you are now fully clear on my position, so please don't go knocking me when I respond to similar naive posts, where my position is consistent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ai_Droid Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 So, what punishment should the State apply to people like me who will refuse to have an ID Card? Death, preferably. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lonan3 Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ai_Droid Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 But the difference is, they do not do with data, what this UK government proposes to do with data. There you go again, cherry picking one item in the list and ignoring the whole. You ought to do a little a lot more research into how these countries operate with their data, and have dealt legislatively with the issues of terrorism and the issues of civil liberties, before firing off. For example? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert Tatlock Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 But the difference is, they do not do with data, what this UK government proposes to do with data. There you go again, cherry picking one item in the list and ignoring the whole. You ought to do a little a lot more research into how these countries operate with their data, and have dealt legislatively with the issues of terrorism and the issues of civil liberties, before firing off. For example? I'm not biting anymore, and doing your research for you. Come up with an example yourself since you imply the UK legislation is comparable to that of these countries - with your post "Yes, Belgium, Finland, Italy, Greece, Spain, Sweden, all hotbeds of government oppression and fascism...." - implying their response has been the same as the UK: i.e. they intend to handle and process data the same as the UK, have introduced the same legislation as the UK, have a similar 'acceptable' reduction to civil liberties as the UK - when I have researched it and know it not to be the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cronky Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 ai_Droid, Have you read the report on ID Cards by 'Justice'? http://www.justice.org.uk/images/pdfs/idcardcc.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ai_Droid Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 Come up with an example yourself since you imply the UK legislation is comparable to that of these countries - with your post "Yes, Belgium, Finland, Italy, Greece, Spain, Sweden, all hotbeds of government oppression and fascism...." - implying their response has been the same as the UK: i.e. they intend to handle and process data the same as the UK, have introduced the same legislation as the UK, have a similar 'acceptable' reduction to civil liberties as the UK - when I have researched it and know it not to be the case. I mentioned them simply because they are countries with ID cards, and they seem to have managed it without descending into military rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert Tatlock Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 Come up with an example yourself since you imply the UK legislation is comparable to that of these countries - with your post "Yes, Belgium, Finland, Italy, Greece, Spain, Sweden, all hotbeds of government oppression and fascism...." - implying their response has been the same as the UK: i.e. they intend to handle and process data the same as the UK, have introduced the same legislation as the UK, have a similar 'acceptable' reduction to civil liberties as the UK - when I have researched it and know it not to be the case. I mentioned them simply because they are countries with ID cards, and they seem to have managed it without descending into military rule. Yet again I say, dig deeper into how ID cards are used there, who has access to the information and what they use it for. Wholly different to the proposed UK system and its proposed uses, accessibility, control and monitoring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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