Horse Trams

[Gladys]

I suspect the loss is almost entirely the cost side of keeping them the fares taken can't amount to very much as you rarely see the trams full and they don't run very frequently, seemingly just one starting off form each end of the prom . However, I would like to know what makes up the loss, I can't see it being wages. Perhaps it is mainly down to a charge for the property used by the service. On the assumption that the property is owned by the Corpie, then it is not 'real' money lost, but more an opportunity cost to the Corpie not being able to use the properties for another purpose.

[John Wright]

and it is fully subsidised by a grant from central government annually as part of the rates support so we all pay for it not just Douglas residents

[Millman]

I suspect the loss is almost entirely the cost side of keeping them the fares taken can't amount to very much as you rarely see the trams full and they don't run very frequently, seemingly just one starting off form each end of the prom . However, I would like to know what makes up the loss, I can't see it being wages. Perhaps it is mainly down to a charge for the property used by the service. On the assumption that the property is owned by the Corpie, then it is not 'real' money lost, but more an opportunity cost to the Corpie not being able to use the properties for another purpose.

Yes because keeping a number of horses is free isn't it. How about paying people to look after the horses, vet bills, medicines, feed etc. Then there is the maintenance of rolling stock. Maintenance of facilities. Ok so the conductors and drivers wages may not amount to much but its blatantly obvious that other costs especially concerning the keeping of animals will be huge.

[bluemonday]

IF it's going to stay, IMPO Albert Tatlocks suggestion of just running one track should be seriously looked at.

[Lost Login]

I suspect the loss is almost entirely the cost side of keeping them the fares taken can't amount to very much as you rarely see the trams full and they don't run very frequently, seemingly just one starting off form each end of the prom . However, I would like to know what makes up the loss, I can't see it being wages. Perhaps it is mainly down to a charge for the property used by the service. On the assumption that the property is owned by the Corpie, then it is not 'real' money lost, but more an opportunity cost to the Corpie not being able to use the properties for another purpose.

Yes because keeping a number of horses is free isn't it. How about paying people to look after the horses, vet bills, medicines, feed etc. Then there is the maintenance of rolling stock. Maintenance of facilities. Ok so the conductors and drivers wages may not amount to much but its blatantly obvious that other costs especially concerning the keeping of animals will be huge.

 

My guess is that its is wages as if we take £50 a week as a livery cost of a horse that is £2,500 per year. 20 horses is £50,000. If there are any horse owners here they can probably more accurately advise the going rate for livery.

 

Staffing say 2 full time stable hands, 10 part time drivers and conductors, stable hands. say £100- 120k

 

That still leaves another £100k of costs which I can not believe are just vet bills & mainteance of the trams although I give you the insurance might not be cheap. I get the feeling that they are loading the costs to try and make a case against govt.

 

Ultimately I would like to see a full breakdown of the costs and income but it is unlikely to be forthcoming. I would especially like to see the details of income against costs of conductors as if it less than the costs of the conductors what is to loose byletting them be free with a dishonesty box

[Lost Login]

So that is an absolute maximum unless they can run the whole network for £1,500,000 a year (wages, maintenence, track repairs, fuel, heating, lighting etc) its got to be losing buckets.

 

It probably is, but then so are the buses so lets gets rid of them. Public car parks they are often loss making so lets close them and as for public parks and football pitches why lets build flats or offices on them and make some real money.

[Moghrey Mie]

500k taken in fares? i would be suprised if they took 50k.

 

Its easy to work out.

 

The manx radio report said that 79,000 people had made a journey by Electric Tram and 105,000 travelled on the Steam Train.

 

Ignoring one way journeys, season tickets, childrens fares, school trips etc if you assume every person paid a minimum of £10 for a return trip by tram or train that is a maximum of £1,840,000 you could possibly raise in a year. In reality there will be season ticket buyers, childrens fares and other discount rates that would probably discount that amount hugely. I bet the stats only cover tickets sold ignoring whether they were retuurns or not, and I don't think a return fare is as high as a tenner but lets say this is a fair basis.

 

So that is an absolute maximum unless they can run the whole network for £1,500,000 a year (wages, maintenence, track repairs, fuel, heating, lighting etc) its got to be losing buckets.

Are we not talking about the horse trams?

 

You're right. I'm getting confused by other loss making wastes of money.

 

I'd actually be surprised if they took £30k on the trams all season.

 

 

Surely there are plenty of accountants in Treasury and other government departments who could advise Douglas Corporation on how to make a business pay.

Or set it as an Executive Challenge for the bright young things.

 

Meanwhile they could try to generate a bit of income by selling 'horse related' souvenirs. Or charging to have your photo taken with a driver.

[Gladys]

I suspect the loss is almost entirely the cost side of keeping them the fares taken can't amount to very much as you rarely see the trams full and they don't run very frequently, seemingly just one starting off form each end of the prom . However, I would like to know what makes up the loss, I can't see it being wages. Perhaps it is mainly down to a charge for the property used by the service. On the assumption that the property is owned by the Corpie, then it is not 'real' money lost, but more an opportunity cost to the Corpie not being able to use the properties for another purpose.

Yes because keeping a number of horses is free isn't it. How about paying people to look after the horses, vet bills, medicines, feed etc. Then there is the maintenance of rolling stock. Maintenance of facilities. Ok so the conductors and drivers wages may not amount to much but its blatantly obvious that other costs especially concerning the keeping of animals will be huge.

The horses are in fields during winter I think, the real cost of keeping horses is stabling. Vets' bills will be a factor, but not that high. They will be a self-perpetuating stock also! In any case, these are working animals not Virginia's gymkhana pony!

 

My guess is that it is a property charge which pushes the cost up. As this is probably not a real cost, i.e. one going out of the coffers, but an accounting charge, it will skew the loss. What I would like to see is a breakdown of the loss to see what is the real cost of keeping the horse trams before jumping up and down demanding their immediate termination or investing in huge capital cost to change the tramlines.

 

They are an anachronism, but rather a nice one which I would try to keep.

[Lonan3]

Surely there are plenty of accountants in Treasury and other government departments who could advise Douglas Corporation on how to make a business pay.

Funniest post so far this year! Well done!

[triskelion]

IF it's going to stay, IMPO Albert Tatlocks suggestion of just running one track should be seriously looked at.

 

How would that cut costs though?

[Lonan3]

Perhaps it's time to choose between being a 'quaint' destination for a handful of holidaymakers or a profitable and modern financial centre. In other words, throwing more money at failing enterprises such as the horse trams should be seriously reconsidered. No matter how 'novel' they might be, they have outlived their usefulness and, as another poster suggested, should really be no more than a museum piece.

[Lost Login]

Perhaps it's time to choose between being a 'quaint' destination for a handful of holidaymakers or a profitable and modern financial centre. In other words, throwing more money at failing enterprises such as the horse trams should be seriously reconsidered. No matter how 'novel' they might be, they have outlived their usefulness and, as another poster suggested, should really be no more than a museum piece.

 

They are but you could argue that for much of the Islands heritage etc. Do we get rid of the railways and trams, flatten Castle Rushen, Peel Castle, Laxey Wheel, close the House of Mananin, Manx Museum etc etc as all probably cost more to run than they take in income. Or are they OK cos they do not hold up ever so slightly traffic and are financed by the government?

[Albert Tatlock]

The costs for the year to March 2007 are stated in the DOUGLAS BOROUGH COUNCIL – ABSTRACT OF ACCOUNTS as:

 

Employee Costs £257,596

Property & Fixed Plant £22,889

Transport and Plant £21,655

Supplies £32,277

Central Support Services £9,467

Capital Finance £19,625

 

The income was stated as:

 

Traffic Receipts (£69,333)

Receipts from Funds (£11,305)

Other income (£11,541)

 

Assets and borrowings are also stated in this document.

 

Halve the tracks, halve the journeys, mothball some of the trams for use on a cyclic basis, reduce the number of employees (and livestock) - and I would suggest there is substantial potential for savings, whilst maintaining the service and improving traffic flow. At the very least I think it should be assessed as an option.

 

An additional option open to thought might be to think about installing another horse tram track e.g. in either Peel or Ramsey (even onto Ramsey pier) etc. using the spare track, trams and livestock - after going to a single track in Douglas. But would ratepayers elsewhere (or the government) really consider this I wonder? I believe it may be possible to operate a very cheap version in these areas, with maintenance support from staff in Douglas. All you need in these areas is a bit of track, two staff (driver/conductor), a double garage and somewhere to keep the horses isn't it?

[VinnieK]

It probably is, but then so are the buses so lets gets rid of them. Public car parks they are often loss making so lets close them and as for public parks and football pitches why lets build flats or offices on them and make some real money.

 

That's not really a fair comparison though. Bus services are often run at a loss, but the point is that they do perform a genuine public service, as do car parks, football pitches and public parks - these things are not so much "making a loss" as they are subsidised by the Government for the convenience public use, which is generally fairly high. Of course, technically speaking the horse trams too are subsidised, but I make the (slighty wonky, I admit) distinction because they don't offer a particularly important service and aren't used by that many people.

 

That said, I would be sad to see them go completely, if for no reason other than sentimentality.

[localyokel]

The costs for the year to March 2007 are stated in the DOUGLAS BOROUGH COUNCIL – ABSTRACT OF ACCOUNTS

 

Employee Costs £257,596

Transport and Plant £21,655

 

If they got rid of all their employees and the transport and plant they could save the £270,000! Surely nobody has thought of this?