What Does The Lisbon Treaty Mean For Iom?

[Skeddan]

Does anyone know if there's anything which clarifies where IoM fits into the Lisbon Treaty?

 

I’ve not looked at this in any depth, but it seems to me:

 

- The UK has power to impose legislation on IoM (though exactly how this is delimited is far from clear).

 

- The Lisbon Treaty appears to hand over to the EU more powers to impose directives in certain areas.

 

What I'm wondering is:

 

- Does this treaty mean that the UK’s powers to impose legislation on IoM may be given over to the EU in some areas? If so, which are they?

 

- If so, will the EU be subject to the same ‘restraint’ and ‘conventions’ which has meant the UK has been sparing in its use of this legislative authority over IoM?

 

- The UK seems to have made reservations in certain areas of ‘Home Affairs’. IoM is not part of the UK. Does ‘Home Affairs’ include IoM or not?

 

- Has the UK government consulted with the Manx Government over the Lisbon Treaty (assuming that it may have implications for IoM)?

 

I've not been able to find anything from the Manx Govt on this - can anyone point me to where to look, or is able to shed any light on this?

[Skeddan]

- Has the UK government consulted with the Manx Government over the Lisbon Treaty (assuming that it may have implications for IoM)?

 

Why should you care. As already confirmed you don't live here.

 

Lots of people are interested in what is going on in places they don't live, but there isn't much in depth news reporting about the Isle of Man, and nothing I can find on this.

[xbones]

I can't be bothered looking this up, but surely no-one can hand over power without us agreeing, especially considering we're not in the EU.

[localyokel]

- Has the UK government consulted with the Manx Government over the Lisbon Treaty (assuming that it may have implications for IoM)?

 

Why should you care. As already confirmed you don't live here.

 

Lots of people are interested in what is going on in places they don't live, but there isn't much in depth news reporting about the Isle of Man, and nothing I can find on this.

 

Just look up Protocol 3 to the Treaty of Rome and work forwards. Most Manxies are aware of the constitutional position and where it places us.

[staaue]

- Has the UK government consulted with the Manx Government over the Lisbon Treaty (assuming that it may have implications for IoM)?

 

Why should you care. As already confirmed you don't live here.

 

More to the point, why don't you care???????

 

The guy shows an interest in constitutional affairs etc... Hasn't he raised some rather interesting ideas for us to consider...

 

Earlier the same day, you had just warning us in one of your posts, to be cautious of British influences; but then to basically tell someone to shut up because you don't see why they should care!!!!!!

 

If this is what British "culture" has been reduced to then I'm all for breaking away as the culture in the Celtic nations seems to have not have yet become cartoon parody of itself.

 

We have to work carefuilly to avoid what has brought Britain down from happening here. We've already had the BNP try to canvass here and I think on balance the IOM is a good cultural melting pot (as it always has been back through history) but if we let the new British influences take over too much were going to be left with very little of worth.

 

You're kind of contradicting yourself....

 

I don't know what Skeddan is talking about, I've never heard of the Lisbon Treaty, but what if it is important to us, what if someone knows about it and can come on here and tell us their views on it so we are better informed.....

[Albert Tatlock]

The Lisbon Treaty and the European Constitution: A side-by-side comparison"

 

c ) this Treaty shall apply to the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man only to the extent necessary to ensure the implementation of the arrangements for those islands originally set out in the Treaty referred to in Article IV-437(2)(a), and which have been incorporated in Section 3 of Title II of the Protocol on the Treaties and Acts of Accession of the Kingdom of Denmark, Ireland and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, of the Hellenic Republic, of the Kingdom of Spain and the Portuguese Republic, and of the Republic of Austria, the Republic of Finland and the Kingdom of Sweden."

[staaue]

The Lisbon Treaty and the European Constitution: A side-by-side comparison"

 

c ) this Treaty shall apply to the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man only to the extent necessary to ensure the implementation of the arrangements for those islands originally set out in the Treaty referred to in Article IV-437(2)(a), and which have been incorporated in Section 3 of Title II of the Protocol on the Treaties and Acts of Accession of the Kingdom of Denmark, Ireland and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, of the Hellenic Republic, of the Kingdom of Spain and the Portuguese Republic, and of the Republic of Austria, the Republic of Finland and the Kingdom of Sweden."

 

Cheers Albert.... That's a bit of light reading eh..

 

So what has happened to Protocol 3, does it still exist??????

 

The old treaty appears to show that this protocol is used in reference to our connection with Europe through the UK, yet the new treaty appears to say nothing about protocol 3.

 

Hopefully I've got it wrong, can someone enlighten me? :blink:

[Cronky]

Peter Karran has been in Guernsey attending a conference looking at the Lisbon Treaty and has contributed to letter in the Daily Telegraph today:

 

We, being most concerned about matters of sovereignty arising from the signing of the Lisbon Treaty, held an informal conference in Guernsey this week. In the context of this treaty, currently being debated in Westminster, there are uncertainties as to the constitutional position of the Crown dependencies, which remain outside the European Union, as Britain cedes further powers to Brussels.

 

We consider it of vital importance that our people are fully informed about the implications of any constitutional changes that may arise from this treaty.

 

We would therefore urge Her Majesty's Government to adopt a position of openness and honesty regarding this treaty, which affects not just the people of Britain, but also the citizens of the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man.

[Cronky]

The story is also covered in the Guernsey Press:

 

GUERNSEY’S independence is seriously under threat from the EU and more has to be done to safeguard it.

 

and

 

‘We will be approaching the position where the Channel Islands will have to make some very difficult decisions about their future because otherwise they will find that they are dragged into the whole edifice of the European Union by default because the goal posts around them are being moved.

[triskelion]

Read that article Cronky, and its a bit vague, to the extent that it does not directly point to anything specific in the treaty that will have an impact, and instead quotes a few Euro-sceptics who seem as concerned about swiping at the Labour Party as they do anything else.

[Cronky]

Read that article Cronky, and its a bit vague, to the extent that it does not directly point to anything specific in the treaty that will have an impact, and instead quotes a few Euro-sceptics who seem as concerned about swiping at the Labour Party as they do anything else.

 

Given that the Lisbon Treaty is a deliberately obscure document it must be difficult to write an impact assessment for the Crown Dependencies. Additionally, the British and European civil servants who draw up such documents are adept at hiding the true message. However, an impact assessment is just what we need.

 

I wonder what the Chief Secretaries advice to COMIN is on the Treaty?

[John Wright]

Section 3 of the Protocol referred to above is Protocol 3, just diplomatic language to say same thing

 

The lisbon Treaty sets out new arrangemenst for the sharing of power between the member states within the EU. it is clearly an new agreement as to how many seats/votes and who has vetoes and about what and had become necessary because the original arrangements for 6, then 9, then 12 then 15 etc, now 27 countries to sit down and agree the way forward had become unworkable.

 

Whether it is a constitution or not is debatable. No one wants it to be a constitution if their own countries constitution requires a referendum to adopt such a change. That is why the last attempt failed. So although it is mainly the same as the last treaty, which was a constitution, everyone is pretending it isn't.

 

It means more centralisation, more qualified majority voting, less influence for the big boys, fewer vetoes. that means more influence and power for the newer, smaller states

 

The questioner asked what it meant for the IOM. In practical terms, allegedley, nothing. The problem is that the economic power of the EU is so pervasive that it means everything. If you want to export into the EU you comply with their rules so we end up with a luxury abatoir and creamery, if you want to build a factory or waste burner or a power station you have to adopt their rules about pollution. You face sanctions otherwise. 90% of our legislation is EU driven.

 

However we are not in to have a vote, voice or view.

 

That is what Protocol 3 means and it is what Lisbon means.

 

it means that we are within the market in goods, so no customs between here and Dublin in the West Sweden in the North Slovakia in the East and Greece in the South East and Spain and Portugal in the South West.

 

The treaty does not however give a greater degree of democracy to European voters. It does appoint new officers in realtion to foreign affairs

 

not withstanding all this it is still popular, especially in the new countries of Europe, everyone wants in. They see great benefits of political stability, a large market for their goods and modernisation.

 

Think if we could sell our financial services to 500 million instead of the 60 million in the UK. Yet there is little or no debate here.

 

It would not demand huge payments in, nor a loss of our freedoms to legislate or to set our own tax rates. We have VAT already within the parameters, we have sorted out our tax problems as pressure was put upon us. our competitors such as Cyprus, malta and Gibraltar, luxenbourg and dublin, are in. it doesn't harm them.

 

Downsides expensive office needed in Brussels with expensive staff. No control over our borders, well we don't have that any way.

 

Other advantages

 

EU aid to marginal/peripheral areas, EU help for local languages, EU help with essential transport. EU farming grants, EU health card, no more 2 generations manx not entitled to live and work in Europe due to protocol 3. In the oast it would still have paid for our harbour and IRIS. It may still contribute to large scale projects

[VikingRaider]

No control over our borders, well we don't have that any way.

 

Yes we do in one very important way ... the power of exclusion from the island.

[John Wright]

in very limited circumstances in criminal matters only

[Skeddan]

Given that the Lisbon Treaty is a deliberately obscure document it must be difficult to write an impact assessment for the Crown Dependencies. Additionally, the British and European civil servants who draw up such documents are adept at hiding the true message. However, an impact assessment is just what we need.

I entirely agree.

 

John, thanks for the view on Lisbon, and your informative comments. A fair amount of what you say seems to be making a case for IoM becoming a full member of the EU, which is another matter again. If the following is a fair summation of your view, then from what I can make of it, I don’t entirely disagree:

 

The questioner asked what it meant for the IOM. In practical terms, allegedley, nothing. … However we are not in to have a vote, voice or view….That is what Protocol 3 means and it is what Lisbon means.

However I’d be a little more cautious about assuming the Lisbon Treaty wouldn’t have any impact on IoM, and I think the concerns expressed by Peter Karran in the letter in the Daily Telegraph indicate this may not be quite so straightforward as might at first appear.

 

I’d also suggest that as well as an impact assessment, what should also be considered is a ‘non-impact’ assessment; i.e. how the provisions of the treaty do not apply to IoM where perhaps they should.

 

One way of looking at this is that the UK’s relationship with IoM slips through a treaty loophole. This relationship can thus continue without being subject to the provisions of the treaty.

 

For the treaty, see: http://www.openeurope.org.uk/research/comparative.pdf

 

This loophole is provided by clause c of Article 355:

 

c) the Treaties shall apply to the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man only to the extent necessary to ensure the implementation of the arrangements for those islands set out in the Treaty concerning the accession of new Member States to the European Economic Community and to the European Atomic Energy Community signed on 22 January 1972.

By itself this seems reasonably ok, but this must be considered in relation to the rest of the treaty. Here are some examples of what this might mean considered in relation to IoM:

 

Article 8 [7a]

 

The Union and its neighbours

 

1. The Union shall develop a special relationship with neighbouring countries, aiming to establish an area of prosperity and good neighbourliness, founded on the values of the Union and characterised by close and peaceful relations based on cooperation.

Clause c means that Treaty provisions for a relationship characterised by good neighbourliness, and close and peaceful relations based on cooperation does not apply to IoM. I guess that means the UK’s relationship with IoM is not subject to this Article.

 

Article 8 continues:

 

2. For the purposes of paragraph 1, the Union may conclude specific agreements with the countries concerned. These agreements may contain reciprocal rights and obligations as well as the possibility of undertaking activities jointly. Their implementation shall be the subject of periodic consultation.

This exclusion of IoM also would appear to mean that the EU does not have competence to make agreements with IoM as would otherwise be provided for under the treaty (despite IoM now supposedly having international personality).

 

Even if the EU could make an agreement with IoM, what would be the procedure? Given clause c, the procedures set out in Article 218 do not apply to IoM.

 

ARTICLE 218 [188n]

1. Without prejudice to the specific provisions laid down in Article 207, agreements between the Union and third countries or international organisations shall be negotiated and concluded in accordance with the following procedure.

Since the treaty seems to stipulate this is the only way that EU agreements can be negotiated with third countries, it would seem the only way the EU could negotiate and conclude an agreement with IoM would be through introducing an amendment to the Lisbon Treaty which would have to be agreed by all the Member States. Otherwise one can see it tying up the EU lawyers till the cows come home (which would be much the same thing).

 

Moving on...

 

Article 3 [2]

The Union's objectives

 

(2) It shall respect its rich cultural and linguistic diversity, and shall ensure that Europe's cultural heritage is safeguarded and enhanced.

This Article does not apply to IoM, so Manks culture and language need not be respected, safeguarded and enhanced under this Article. I guess that means no change to the way Manks history and cultural heritage is treated.

 

ARTICLE 167 [151]

 

Action by the Union shall be aimed at encouraging cooperation between Member States and, if necessary, supporting and supplementing their action in the following areas:

……

— improvement of the knowledge and dissemination of the culture and history of the European peoples,

(but not the Manks).

 

 

Given clause c, IoM is also excluded from the provisions of Chapter 2, Article 212 of the treaty, which would otherwise allow it to receive the kind of assistance this provides for:

 

ECONOMIC, FINANCIAL AND TECHNICAL COOPERATION WITH THIRD

COUNTRIES

 

ARTICLE 212 [188h]

 

1. Without prejudice to the other provisions of the Treaties, and in particular Articles 208 to 211, the Union shall carry out economic, financial and technical cooperation measures, including assistance, in particular financial assistance, with third countries other than developing countries. Such measures shall be consistent with the development policy of the Union and shall be carried out within the framework of the principles and objectives of its external action. The Union's operations and those of the Member States shall complement and reinforce each other.

It’s a pity about that.

 

 

There are various other areas where the treaty establishes principles of cooperation with non-member states (education, energy, sport, environment etc.), but once again these provisions do not apply to IoM.

 

 

Among the various other things that fall through this ‘clause c loophole’ is the following in Article 3:

 

5. In its relations with the wider world, the Union shall uphold and promote its values and interests and contribute to the protection of its citizens. It shall contribute to peace, security, the sustainable development of the Earth, solidarity and mutual respect among peoples, free and fair trade, eradication of poverty and the protection of human rights, in particular the rights of the child, as well as to the strict observance and the development of international law, including respect for the principles of the United Nations Charter.

This treaty provision applies to the ‘wider world’, but not IoM, so the UK needn’t worry about falling foul of its EU obligations in its dealings with IoM (which does not accord with ‘strict observance of international law’).

 

So if the view is that the Lisbon Treaty means IoM doesn’t have a vote, voice, or view (and does not even afford IoM the standing given to everywhere else in the ‘wider world’, but places IoM at the bottom of the heap), that is perhaps a fair summary.

 

 

the British and European civil servants who draw up such documents are adept at hiding the true message.

It may be down to sloppy drafting due to not taking proper account of Manks interests, but the message is the same.

 

Just look up Protocol 3 to the Treaty of Rome and work forwards. Most Manxies are aware of the constitutional position and where it places us.