What Does The Lisbon Treaty Mean For Iom?

[oldmanxfella]

Where's John gone?

 

Probably bored like everyone else.

[Skeddan]

Where's John gone?

Be patient - he may be going through the 170,000 odd pages of EU law trying to find some counter-argument .

[Skeddan]

[oldmanxfella]

 

Your starting to look pathetic rather than the other way around.

 

Whilst your imperiously holding up this thread, please use your supreme intellectual powers to answer one question.

 

What do you suggest the Manx Government do? Only two EU member states put the original draft EU constitution to referendum (France & the Netherlands) both had it rejected by an overwhelming majority. Around 17 member states voted in support of the draft constitution - many only narrowly winning Parliamentary support - without putting it to public debate of any kind.

 

Lisbon is simply the compromise deal to get around France and the Netherlands democracy problem (ie. its not the constitution so the referendum results apparently don't count despite the fact that key parts of the draft constitution are in Lisbon). So in reality very few Europeans have been consulted, or will be consulted, before this takes effect IF it takes effect

 

Lisbon

 

Gordon Brown has denied the UK population a role in saying what happens next so why are you posting this stuff on here about the IOM Government - the government of a non EU member state and not even a direct party to the treaty - not putting the impact of the treaty to debate with IOM residents and not fully understanding its contents? Nobody else has either.

 

Its very likely happening. Nobody even within the EU has a say in it, as nobody (except Ireland) intends to put it to the public vote so what is your specific problem with the stance adopted by our government - a non EU parliament? The IOM has no say in this matter, just as the UK voters have no say in whatever UK powers it cedes to the EU. In fact there is not one voter, in any democracy in Europe, that has a say in any of this - save possibly the Irish - the only country with the balls to say that it will take it to a referendum regardless.

 

(Before I see your your reply I can already predict the pseudo high-brow sneering it will doubtlessly involve)

[Skeddan]

What do you suggest the Manx Government do?

Figure out what it really means, determine areas of concern, decide on appropriate response.

 

If there is any leverage it is while Lisbon Treaty is being debated by UK Parliament (if only on basis of May 2007 agreement). That window of opportunity is closing fast. Once Lisbon Treaty is ratified and incorporated into law, it may prove virtually impossible to renegotiate without approval of all EU Member States.

 

IMO the thing NOT to do is bury head in sand on the basis that if there is a problem then probably there is little that can be done. (see for example Columbia space shuttle disaster). Once you have a situation assessment you can develop a strategic plan - without it you cannot.

[oldmanxfella]

What do you suggest the Manx Government do?

Figure out what it really means, determine areas of concern, decide on appropriate response.

 

If there is any leverage it is while Lisbon Treaty is being debated by UK Parliament (if only on basis of May 2007 agreement). That window of opportunity is closing fast. Once Lisbon Treaty is ratified and incorporated into law, it may prove virtually impossible to renegotiate without approval of all EU Member States.

 

IMO the thing NOT to do is bury head in sand on the basis that if there is a problem then probably there is little that can be done. (see for example Columbia space shuttle disaster). Once you have a situation assessment you can develop a strategic plan - without it you cannot.

 

Thank you for your opinion.

 

Are you still waiting for John Wright to comment?

[Skeddan]

Are you still waiting for John Wright to comment?

That's up to him.

[triskelion]

The Chief Minister has stated that there are no areas of concern.

[Skeddan]

The Chief Minister has stated that there are no areas of concern.

Thanks for this Triskelion - here's a link I found on the Chief Minister's statements about this. (Do you have another source with any further info about this? - this is the only item I've found on this)

 

I couldn't find Tony Brown actually sayign "there are no areas of concern", though Alan Bell seemed to dismiss 'scaremongering', and this might be seen as suggesting much the same thing. What the Chief Minister appears to have said is:

 

THE Lisbon Treaty to reform the European Union will have no effect on the Isle of Man

More precisely, as he apparently went on to elaborate what he meant by this:

'Despite the changes in the EU, our assessment is that the text and meaning of Protocol 3, which sets out our relationship with the EU, remains unchanged by the Lisbon Treaty and so the legal relationship with the EU also remains unchanged.'

If you look back at my post #15 I accepted that IoM's legal relationship with the EU will remain unchanged by the Lisbon Treaty - but that this was maybe not a good thing, especially if everyone else gets advantages but IoM is not in the running. IoM's status and legal relationship with the EU may remain unchanged and so the Libson Treaty may have 'no effect on IoM' in this respect, but I think it would be a mistake to assume this means there is no cause for concern.

 

BTW it was John Wright who was arguing that Lisbon meant there was a change in the legal relationship between IoM and EU (if only by virtue of IoM having benefit of certain rights and procedures available to third countries by virtue of the Treaty).

 

The Chief Minister also said there was a danger of a minority 'generating a false picture' - yes, I'd agree with that also! From what I can see he has shown great political astuteness in not saying anything definitive about the impact that Lisbon might have as the goalposts are changed around IoM.

 

So, from what I can see of his statements, then strictly speaking I don't disagree one bit with what the Chief Minister has said about the Lisbon Treaty. However if elsewhere it is reported that he has said that this is "no cause for concern", then I think for reasons such as given in post #15 that this exclusion of IoM from the scope of the Treaty is not without significance and may well be a cause for concern.

 

If the Chief Minister has indeed said that "there are no areas of concern" for IoM in the Lisbon Treaty, then what is the basis for such an assertion? He says "our assessment"; I may be wrong about this, but there does not seem to have been any such assessment which has been published, such as a Council of Ministers report to Tynwald offering an analysis. There was however a Council of Ministers report on the proposed EU Constitution in 2003 (which is similar though by no means identical to the Lisbon Treaty). That report concluded that the proposed EU Constitution did not affect IoM's status or legal relationship with the EU, but it was nevertheless highlighted that there was a need for vigilance to ensure that IoM's interests were not going to be infringed. That may be taken as indicating that IoM's interests may be affected despite there being no change to its legal relationship with the EU.

 

I would still like to see the details of the 'assessment' the Chief Minister based his statement on, and I'd think at the least this should be provided to Tynwald. Is it a dusted down copy of the 2003 report with a new cover? (if that). Is 'our assessment' one he obtained in a memo from Whitehall? What exactly was the basis for the conclusions that this assessment appears to have reached? Even though that assessment accords with my interpretation, IMO this falls a long way short of being a satisfactory way for the Chief Minister to report on such an important matter.

 

Thanks again for this update Triskelion - please keep posting any developments on the Lisbon Treaty & IoM you come across.

[Fred]

Presumabably the assesment came from the people we pay to provide such assesments?

 

From Keys question time 5th February 2008

Part of reply to a question about the Lisbon treaty,

 

The Chief Minister:

"The Isle of Man Government, as Members will be aware, retains the services of White & Case and in fact, their senior officer did a presentation to Hon. Members in the Barrool Suite, only recently, about this whole issue. They are the advisers to the Isle of Man Government and provide a listening watch within Brussels directly, to ensure we have the best advice available."