Veterans

[Lonan3]

They called it the 'Great War,' a strange epithet for a conflict that killed nine million people. Strange to think that there are still veterans alive who actually fought in that conflict.

The last veteran of the German army, Dr Erich Kaestner, died this month, which now leaves only a handful:

1 Australian; 1 Canadian; 1 Frenchman; 1 Hungarian; 3 Italians; 1 Turk; 2 Americans and 7 British.

If it really was a war of attrition, it looks as if we won it: 15 - 2. I just wonder whether they really think it was worth it.

[Ean]

May I suggest you read Last Post by Max Arthur if you haven't already. I've already mentioned this book in another thread but it really is a good insight into the lives of the remaining soldiers in WW1. Arthur doesn't just describe their experiences of the war but also writes about their background before the war and how their life progressed once the war had finished.

 

If you'd like to read it I have a copy I can post to you, just send me a PM.

[Mission]

Did anyone see The Great War in Colour - The Soldiers' Story, on the beeb?

 

Focussed on the French army in the main but very interesting for anyone that's never seen colour images from the conflict before.

 

It's still on the iplayer - 4 days left (just view last 7 days, monday evening and it's on page 3 of the results).

[Foxtrotlima]

I found "The Last Fighting Tommy" by Harry Patch an incredibly powerful read. I had always heard the phrase "go over the top" and, quite ignorantly on my behalf, had never really given the phrase much thought. The way that this man describes it, I will never forget.

 

Amazon Link

[Gladys]

We will never know whether any war was 'worth it'. We do not know how things may have been without 'that war', nor do we have anything beyond a very influenced view of what 'that war' actually delivered.

 

I don't think any political objective, whether you agree with the morality behind it or not, is worth the life of my children, or yours.

 

If ever conscription became a possibilty, I would use every trick in the book to keep mine out of it.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

Did anyone see The Great War in Colour - The Soldiers' Story, on the beeb?

 

Focussed on the French army in the main but very interesting for anyone that's never seen colour images from the conflict before.

 

I thought it was brilliant. The colour photos really bring the things to life where black and white photos do not.

 

I hope something could be shown from the Eastern Front though I doubt there will be as much as on the French fronts.

 

We will never know whether any war was 'worth it'. We do not know how things may have been without 'that war', nor do we have anything beyond a very influenced view of what 'that war' actually delivered.

 

I don't think any political objective, whether you agree with the morality behind it or not, is worth the life of my children, or yours.

 

I would certainly say that in the case of almost all wars it is not worth it and certainly not in the case of WW1. So many deaths cannot be justified. It was one of the biggest mistakes of mankind. Some good things came out of it, such as the Russian Revolution.

[silverback]

Did anyone see The Great War in Colour - The Soldiers' Story, on the beeb?

 

Focussed on the French army in the main but very interesting for anyone that's never seen colour images from the conflict before.

 

I thought it was brilliant. The colour photos really bring the things to life where black and white photos do not.

 

I hope something could be shown from the Eastern Front though I doubt there will be as much as on the French fronts.

 

We will never know whether any war was 'worth it'. We do not know how things may have been without 'that war', nor do we have anything beyond a very influenced view of what 'that war' actually delivered.

 

I don't think any political objective, whether you agree with the morality behind it or not, is worth the life of my children, or yours.

 

I would certainly say that in the case of almost all wars it is not worth it and certainly not in the case of WW1. So many deaths cannot be justified. It was one of the biggest mistakes of mankind. Some good things came out of it, such as the Russian Revolution.

 

Are you serious? How can anyone say that the Russian Revolution was a 'good thing'.

[Lonan3]

Are you serious? How can anyone say that the Russian Revolution was a 'good thing'.

Anything that reduces the amount of 'royals' in the world can't be all bad.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

Did anyone see The Great War in Colour - The Soldiers' Story, on the beeb?

 

Focussed on the French army in the main but very interesting for anyone that's never seen colour images from the conflict before.

 

I thought it was brilliant. The colour photos really bring the things to life where black and white photos do not.

 

I hope something could be shown from the Eastern Front though I doubt there will be as much as on the French fronts.

 

We will never know whether any war was 'worth it'. We do not know how things may have been without 'that war', nor do we have anything beyond a very influenced view of what 'that war' actually delivered.

 

I don't think any political objective, whether you agree with the morality behind it or not, is worth the life of my children, or yours.

 

I would certainly say that in the case of almost all wars it is not worth it and certainly not in the case of WW1. So many deaths cannot be justified. It was one of the biggest mistakes of mankind. Some good things came out of it, such as the Russian Revolution.

 

Are you serious? How can anyone say that the Russian Revolution was a 'good thing'.

 

It is quite obvious. It got rid of Tsarist rule and later god rid of the bourgeois liberals. After the Russian Revoltion at least there was the facade that it was a workers state. I think it was also good because it gave hope to other countries around the world that a revolution against capitalism can happen.

 

Anything that reduces the amount of 'royals' in the world can't be all bad.

 

Quite right

[bluemonday]

We will never know whether any war was 'worth it'. We do not know how things may have been without 'that war', nor do we have anything beyond a very influenced view of what 'that war' actually delivered.

 

I don't think any political objective, whether you agree with the morality behind it or not, is worth the life of my children, or yours.

 

If ever conscription became a possibilty, I would use every trick in the book to keep mine out of it.

Worth it?

[VinnieK]

Are you serious? How can anyone say that the Russian Revolution was a 'good thing'.

 

It is quite obvious. It got rid of Tsarist rule and later god rid of the bourgeois liberals. After the Russian Revoltion at least there was the facade that it was a workers state.

 

Which is one view. The other view is that it merely replaced Tsarist rule and "bourgeois liberals" with a different form of tyrrany and bureaucracy, one that claimed its brutalisation and enslavement of the ordinary working man was for his own good - Communism was little more than the malevolent face of 19th century bourgeois middle class paternalism dressed in overalls, an application of colonial techniques to a country's own population.

 

I think it was also good because it gave hope to other countries around the world that a revolution against capitalism can happen.

 

True, and in each case the results have been the same - despotism and misery. The worker's paradise, like all utopias, turned out to be little more than a pipedream and a justification for oppression and imperialism under the name of safeguarding and delivering that "paradise" to all. Revolution in and of itself isn't necessarly a good thing, it's merely the transferral of power from an established elite to an aspiring one.

 

Also, it's worth noting that the Russian Revolution was not entirely a Bolshevik affair, nor did it immediately deliver them into power. Instead they bullied, murdered, and stole their way to power in the post revolution society once it became apparent that they largely lacked the widespread support needed to exercise their rule uncontested.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

The other view is that it merely replaced Tsarist rule and "bourgeois liberals" with a different form of tyrrany and bureaucracy, one that claimed its brutalisation and enslavement of the ordinary working man was for his own good

 

I would think that it did. Communism failed in Russia from the beginning. It was never a communist state, from what I know of communism the state was supposed to wither away.

I tend to think that the working man was just as much of a slave before the Russian Revolution as after it.

 

I think it was also good because it gave hope to other countries around the world that a revolution against capitalism can happen.

 

 

True, and in each case the results have been the same - despotism and misery. The worker's paradise, like all utopias, turned out to be little more than a pipedream and a justification for oppression and imperialism under the name of safeguarding and delivering that "paradise" to all. Revolution in and of itself isn't necessarly a good thing, it's merely the transferral of power from an established elite to an aspiring one.

 

Yes it has resulted in those things but I personally do not feel that capitalism can be reformed. But I do agree those countries that tried to create a communist state just created regimes as bad as those preceding them.

Though with what you are saying about elites replacing other elites, I find it interesting what possibility there is for anarcho-communism. But I just wonder if it is possible to live without hierarchical relationships.

[Gladys]

We will never know whether any war was 'worth it'. We do not know how things may have been without 'that war', nor do we have anything beyond a very influenced view of what 'that war' actually delivered.

 

I don't think any political objective, whether you agree with the morality behind it or not, is worth the life of my children, or yours.

 

If ever conscription became a possibilty, I would use every trick in the book to keep mine out of it.

Worth it?

Of course, stopping concentration camps was a welcome by-product of our side winning the war. But that was not what WWII was about; it was a charateristic of the Nazi state, but the war wasn't to avoid concentration camps. WWII was about stopping German imperialist ambitions, after having been routed in WWI. Nothing to do with the treatment of Jews.

 

In fact, there is a strong argument that the barbaric treatment of Jews in Germany was known well before WWII, but ignored. There are also arguments that if reparations from WWI on Germany hadn't been so severe, it's economy would have been stronger and would not have fuelled the anti-semetism which resented Jewish accumulations of wealth and led, ultimately, to the 'final solution'.

 

There is also an argument that if the war hadn't happened concentration camps wouldn't have happened either, as German society would not have become a closed state, able to control what was known about what was going on.

 

So not a straightforward argument, and of the outcome of WWII was different who is to say it would have been for or against our interests in the longer term? We just do not know.

 

As for the Russian Revolution, and other revolutions, there is a part of me which can understand fighting for a cause which is directly 'yours', and even laying down your life for it. I can understand that much more than fighting a politician's cause, particularly when the cause is far, far away and is unlikely to ever affect you on a personal level.

[keyboarder]

They called it the 'Great War,' a strange epithet for a conflict that killed nine million people

Uh, why strange? Not enough killed for you?

[Mission]

Uh

 

 

Damn, forgot to mention that lyric too.

 

You still okay for the royalties to go elsewhere?