Veterans

[keyboarder]

Uh

 

 

Damn, forgot to mention that lyric too.

 

You still okay for the royalties to go elsewhere?

 

You're not the most sophisticated librettist around are you?

[Mission]

You're not the most sophisticated librettist around are you?

 

 

 

 

To be fair, look at the material I have to work with.

 

[VinnieK]

In fact, there is a strong argument that the barbaric treatment of Jews in Germany was known well before WWII, but ignored. There are also arguments that if reparations from WWI on Germany hadn't been so severe, it's economy would have been stronger and would not have fuelled the anti-semetism which resented Jewish accumulations of wealth and led, ultimately, to the 'final solution'.

 

The first part of your paragraph is true, the second isn't. Anti-semetism was rife in Germany (and indeed in much of Europe, especially Austria) long before economic depression - Hitler and the Nazis exploited popular and historic resentment towards the Jews more than they did to encourage it. Also the final solution has less to do with popular antisemitism than it does Hitler's and Nazi radical antisemitism, which was already well established.

 

Economic disaster of course played a significant part in the rise of the Nazis, but there were many, many factors at play in determining the rise of the Nazi party and the beginning of the Second World War. Amongst these were a belief that liberal democracy was a failed experiment (common in much of Europe at the time); an historic antipathy towards and contempt of East Europeans and Russians; resentment at German defeat during WWI, which many viewed as a result of politicians "selling out" Germany to her enemies (in particular Hitler won over the German military by promises of strengthening the armed forces and a chance at reversing the outcome of the last war), a fear of Bolshevism and russian style revolutions (one of the primary reasons the middle classes and elites followed lent their support to Hitler), and a growing sense of German nationalism. Also, a world war was not an inevitable consequence of Hitler rising to power, and so even if economic disaster were the primary reason for the Nazi party's rise, it was not the primary cause of WWII. There were many times where the world could have stopped Germany in her tracks without provoking a world war, most notably when it came to German rearmament and occupation of lands contrary to the Versailles treaty. Hitler saw the East as the rightful property of Germany and the West as too weak and divided to stop him, and he was right.

 

All in all, whilst it's the opinion of most historians that reparations contributed significantly to the rise of the Nazi party in Germany, it's not true to say that reparations were the primary cause of anti-semitism (and certainly not the holocaust), or of the Second World War.

[Gladys]

I think you are agreeing with me Vinnie, anti-semetism was not the cause of WWII, I think that was the point I was trying to make. WWII allowed the holocaust to happen, rather than the other way around.

 

PS, I think there are very many academics who would argue on the importance of the effect of reparations; anti-semetism was widespread at the time, but the effect of reparations on the German economy vindicated state-led actions against the Jews.

[VinnieK]

I think you are agreeing with me Vinnie, anti-semetism was not the cause of WWII, I think that was the point I was trying to make. WWII allowed the holocaust to happen, rather than the other way around.

 

Aye, I do agree with you on that point certainly.

 

PS, I think there are very many academics who would argue on the importance of the effect of reparations; anti-semetism was widespread at the time, but the effect of reparations on the German economy vindicated state-led actions against the Jews.

 

I have to say I've not encountered such an argument. In every book I've read on the matter the Jews were blamed for much more: The defeat during World War One (which they were said to also have started), Bolshevism and Revolution, the Wall Street Crash and Great Depression. Also, whilst it's true that the Jews were characterised as being avaristic, a far more potent and frequently used portrayal focused on their supposed power - they were reduced to a secret society (or more commonly a disease) that occupied professions of note and controlled the world, plotting Germany's downfall. The Nazi regime needed little more vindication for its actions against the Jews. Reparations may have had an indirect effect, but hatred of the Jews was far deeper than that, and the German public appeared far more interested in finding someone to blame for Germany's misery during and after the First World War (it's telling that Hitler associated them with the UK, which was responsible for the naval blockade of Germany during WWI, which contributed to suffering amongst the German public). Reparations were an exacerbating factor of this suffering, but I believe it's simply not true to say that the Holocaust would never have happened without them.

 

In fact, many people in Europe were simply waiting for an excuse to vent their historical resentment towards the Jews. During the Second World War the widespread murder and brutalization of Jews happened in many countries, the SS often being surprised to find that the local populace had done their job for them upon entering a foreign country under German occupation. These countries did not suffer from reparations, and yet they virtually jumped at the chance to get rid of their Jewish minorities. Indeed, when it comes to the Holocaust, only the Danish actively resisted and lent aid to their Jewish citizens (although Italy dragged its feet when it came to German requests for them to send their Jews to German death camps), with the rest of occupied Europe actively participating or passively allowing the agents of holocaust to operate in their own country (as in the case of France).

[Freggyragh]

WW2 was, in many ways, an oil war. Holland, France, Belgium, and Britain had substantial colonial oil reserves, as did the US and USSR. Germany and Japan had no oil. So, much of the fighting in WW2 was over the oil fields of North Africa, The Caucauses, The Philippines and Indonesia. The oil companies were funded by predominantly Jewish finance houses - bit unfair to take out your frustrations with Rockerfella on an Lithuanian tinker - but then again, its hardly fair that the whole Iraqi nation has to pay for our frustrations with Arab control of oil.

[Albert Tatlock]

Well tomorrow (Sun) is veterans day. Having spent years in the RAF, I thought long and hard about getting involved - and eventually decided not to. I hope those that are involved have a good day - some of them certainly deserve it - but since this is the 3rd veterans day, the first organised by a Labour government in 2006 who started an illegal war IMO, I can't help but see it as something different at present, bordering on propaganda. I'll go to the first one after the rest of Blairs cronies have left.

[RC-Drift.com]

Communism was so good they built this...

 

 

...and it wasn't to keep the west out, it was to stop escapees - this one didn't make it...

 

[immortalpuppet]

Well tomorrow (Sun) is veterans day. Having spent years in the RAF, I thought long and hard about getting involved - and eventually decided not to. I hope those that are involved have a good day - some of them certainly deserve it - but since this is the 3rd veterans day, the first organised by a Labour government in 2006 who started an illegal war IMO, I can't help but see it as something different at present, bordering on propaganda. I'll go to the first one after the rest of Blairs cronies have left.

 

I am always in 2 minds when it comes to stuff like this. Although i have seen active service i never feel like a veteran compared to he likes of the old comrades or people that went to the Falklands. When i was on Tours i got on with the job and had some hairy moments but thats nothing to what the chaps and chapesses saw back then or are seeing in the present day.

 

I think i will continue to offer my armchair support by dontating to help for heroes and SAFFA.

[jimbms]

Well tomorrow (Sun) is veterans day. Having spent years in the RAF, I thought long and hard about getting involved - and eventually decided not to. I hope those that are involved have a good day - some of them certainly deserve it - but since this is the 3rd veterans day, the first organised by a Labour government in 2006 who started an illegal war IMO, I can't help but see it as something different at present, bordering on propaganda. I'll go to the first one after the rest of Blairs cronies have left.

 

I am always in 2 minds when it comes to stuff like this. Although i have seen active service i never feel like a veteran compared to he likes of the old comrades or people that went to the Falklands. When i was on Tours i got on with the job and had some hairy moments but thats nothing to what the chaps and chapesses saw back then or are seeing in the present day.

 

I think i will continue to offer my armchair support by dontating to help for heroes and SAFFA.

I think I am somewhere amongst you two, I have lost several friends between NI, Falklands, Oman and other little places, I opt to remember them in my own personal way not at some political stage show to make a Government who are failing our troops look good. (No disrespect to the Legion and the SAFFA they do a fantastic job)