Killer Gets Permit To Work In Iom

[keyboarder]

Is this an online meeting of the Manx Fascist Party?

[manxy]

It's quite simple isn't it? When people apply for a work permit the work permit office should get a police criminal records check from the country they are coming from, as part of their employment check. This will keep many of dregs from the UK and the ROW getting the opportunity to settle here, as well as protecting employers from potential thieves and the rest of us from potential violence etc. etc. These costs should be on both the employer and the applicant, and not Joe Taxpayer.

 

I currently carry out work for a employer, that operates all over the world, which does this as a matter of course for both permanent and contract employees. A standard UK check costs £31 and an enhanced check £36. The National Criminal Register in Poland provides a similar service, as do other organisations in other countries. This amount of money is sod all, when you consider the potential legal costs that become involved when any immigrants start committing crimes upon their arrival.

 

I agree - and why shouldn't the work permit applicant pay for the police check, or some form of guarantee from their country of origin to prove they haven't got a criminal record? I vaguely remember a discussion on the old Mannin Line about this, and it was said that this is the case in certain countries.

 

Judging from some of the posters on here, a clean bill on the mental health front would be good too!

 

Good point about the permit applicant paying for their own check

[manxy]

Is this an online meeting of the Manx Fascist Party?

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism

Fascism is an authoritarian political ideology (generally tied to a mass movement) that considers the individual subordinate to the interests of the state, party or society as a whole. Fascists seek to forge a type of national unity, usually based on (but not limited to) ethnic, cultural, racial, religious attributes. The key attribute of fascism is intolerance of others: other religions, languages, political views, economic systems, cultural practices, etc. Various scholars attribute different characteristics to fascism, but the following elements are usually seen as its integral parts: nationalism, statism, militarism, totalitarianism, anti-communism, corporatism, populism, collectivism, and opposition to political and economic liberalism

 

Historically, there was a period where several countries and leaders openly accepted the label of "fascist" to describe their political systems, particularly in the 1930s and 1940s. However, owing to the historical record and verdict on these past fascist countries, the term has now fallen largely into disuse as an objective description. Overall, this is due to the associations between fascist regimes and racial supremacist policies, especially in Nazi Germany, although not all fascist regimes espoused racist policies. The term is now used more as an epithet than as a term for any existing systems. This is true even in countries where it might legitimately apply.

 

So what do you think? Maybe this should be on another thread, but if it keeps offenders out of the IOM, then I suppose it is, but at this time of night/morning after a nice night out and a few sips (or so) of wine, it's better to retire gracefully, than say something I might regret in the morning

[La_Dolce_Vita]

I agree - and why shouldn't the work permit applicant pay for the police check, or some form of guarantee from their country of origin to prove they haven't got a criminal record? I vaguely remember a discussion on the old Mannin Line about this, and it was said that this is the case in certain countries.

 

Judging from some of the posters on here, a clean bill on the mental health front would be good too!

 

Oh dear! I don't like the sound of your world. Sounds more terrifying than the criminals you want to keep out of the Isle of Man. First off, I wonder what countries those are?

 

This line of thinking comes from the simplistic view that all criminals are bad people, regardless of the reasons behind their crime, and also that past criminals are still bad people. In talking about preventing past criminals from reaching the Isle of Man it is implicit that you believe that anyone with a past criminal record has absolutely nothing to contribute and will be trouble. Banning everyone who has a criminal record is such a draconian, un-libertarian, and ill-thought out measure that it only be supported by those who do not believe in liberty.

 

I whole heartedly agree, if the trade was stopped at the ports across, before the druggies etc got onto the boat, then we wouldn't have anywhere near the problem we have now. For instance, another Liverpool man remanded in custody (Courier Jan 24th p19) for importing drugs and us the tax payers, have to pay for another scumbag from across, to stay in our gaol.

It seems like every week now, that these scum bags are coming over to feed an increasing market. Stop the supply and you stop the rot.

 

I don't believe the taxpayer should be made to pay for this man to be in gaol, I see little reason for him being in gaol. He comes over sells his drugs to people who want them and then gets imprisoned. So someone else will replace his role. Or you have less people selling the drugs forming some sort of monopoly on the trade. To be honest, I have no problem with it because he is only selling what the Manxies want, he isn't causing the problem. When it comes to addictive substances it is common knowledge that many of these dealers do the amoral thing of selling the first lot cheap to get regular buyers but ultimately the responsibility is down to the person who buys it.

 

If you stop the supply, you will not stop demand for drugs. Besides stopping the supply would be very difficult. As far as I am aware the police are already trying hard to win their "War On Drugs" but it isn't going very well if drug taking is prolific. I also don't think you will stop the rot as I don't see how there is rot. It depends on what drugs you are talking about and their effects on the Island. I cannot see how cannabis and ecstacy for instance can contribute to a rot. Maybe the demand for drugs is a response to the rot in society and the other way around.

 

Shame you couldn't drug test all the population, including hearsay Athol Street and see how big the problem is.

 

Firstly, I see nothing wrong in people making informed choices on what drugs they want to take. It should be up to them and should not be criminalised.

 

I don't see most illegal drug taking as a problem. Cannabis, ketamine, ecstacy, speed, even most cocaine use, I don't see these as being social problems. Heroin and alcohol are a different matter. To crack down very hard on illegal drugs but not alcohol is absolute hypocrisy.

 

What I am interested in knowing is what you want to happen when someone does test positive.

 

As for rehabilitation, well thats a crock of goo as well. The Government only half heartedly does it, but at the end of the day, if the offenders don't want to change, then they won't and another load of tax payers money seeps down the drain. Yes, everyone deserves a chance, but how many chances should a person get, - for ever, for life?

Think about it, stop the supply including the bad apples and regardless of nationality and the island becomes a better place.

 

But as I was saying, you can't determine who are the bad apples simply by looking at their criminal record. It shows they committed a crime but nothing else. They may have had a conviction for possessing cannabis, does that make them a bad apple, do we ban them? They may have been convicted for manslaughter in 1973 with no convictions since, is that person bad, do we ban them, etc. It isn't an effective test.

 

But I would agree that by preventing anyone who enters the Isle of Man who has a criminal record will ensure that those entering may be less likely to commit crimes rather than a system does not check but this is at the expense of peoples liberty's. I do not believe the government has the right to turn away people. If such a system occurred everywhere the past offender would be effectively imprisoned in their own country AFTER having already served a sentence that was imposed to punish them.

 

I imagine from your line of thinking that you believe that all Manx criminals should be removed from the Island?

 

Is this an online meeting of the Manx Fascist Party?

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism

Fascism is an authoritarian political ideology (generally tied to a mass movement) that considers the individual subordinate to the interests of the state, party or society as a whole. Fascists seek to forge a type of national unity, usually based on (but not limited to) ethnic, cultural, racial, religious attributes. The key attribute of fascism is intolerance of others: other religions, languages, political views, economic systems, cultural practices, etc. Various scholars attribute different characteristics to fascism, but the following elements are usually seen as its integral parts: nationalism, statism, militarism, totalitarianism, anti-communism, corporatism, populism, collectivism, and opposition to political and economic liberalism

 

Historically, there was a period where several countries and leaders openly accepted the label of "fascist" to describe their political systems, particularly in the 1930s and 1940s. However, owing to the historical record and verdict on these past fascist countries, the term has now fallen largely into disuse as an objective description. Overall, this is due to the associations between fascist regimes and racial supremacist policies, especially in Nazi Germany, although not all fascist regimes espoused racist policies. The term is now used more as an epithet than as a term for any existing systems. This is true even in countries where it might legitimately apply.

 

So what do you think? Maybe this should be on another thread, but if it keeps offenders out of the IOM, then I suppose it is, but at this time of night/morning after a nice night out and a few sips (or so) of wine, it's better to retire gracefully, than say something I might regret in the morning

 

It is fascist or at least very 'conservative' when you talk about how people should be all tested for drugs, which would be undertaken by the state, as this is the correct thing to do regardless of the rights of the populace. And having a government that will prevent the movement of foreigners into the country if these people are bad, i.e. have a criminal record, even though these people have served their sentences. Snaipyr views are just as right wing by agreeing to the screening of people and making them pay for it.

 

It's quite simple isn't it? When people apply for a work permit the work permit office should get a police criminal records check from the country they are coming from, as part of their employment check. This will keep many of dregs from the UK and the ROW getting the opportunity to settle here, as well as protecting employers from potential thieves and the rest of us from potential violence etc. etc. These costs should be on both the employer and the applicant, and not Joe Taxpayer.

 

I currently carry out work for a employer, that operates all over the world, which does this as a matter of course for both permanent and contract employees. A standard UK check costs £31 and an enhanced check £36. The National Criminal Register in Poland provides a similar service, as do other organisations in other countries. This amount of money is sod all, when you consider the potential legal costs that become involved when any immigrants start committing crimes upon their arrival.

 

Are these checks carried out by those simply wishing to begin work with this employer or is it also in relation to moving from one nation to another?

[Albert Tatlock]

It's quite simple isn't it? When people apply for a work permit the work permit office should get a police criminal records check from the country they are coming from, as part of their employment check. This will keep many of dregs from the UK and the ROW getting the opportunity to settle here, as well as protecting employers from potential thieves and the rest of us from potential violence etc. etc. These costs should be on both the employer and the applicant, and not Joe Taxpayer.

 

I currently carry out work for a employer, that operates all over the world, which does this as a matter of course for both permanent and contract employees. A standard UK check costs £31 and an enhanced check £36. The National Criminal Register in Poland provides a similar service, as do other organisations in other countries. This amount of money is sod all, when you consider the potential legal costs that become involved when any immigrants start committing crimes upon their arrival.

 

Are these checks carried out by those simply wishing to begin work with this employer or is it also in relation to moving from one nation to another?

These checks are carried out by the employer, which undertakes work for many governments and large businesses, so are designed primarily to protect both the employer and it's clients. However, we must remember that the Isle of Man is currently in an enviable position, in that it is: not in the UK, not in the EU, and, operates a work permit system, that happens to provide an opportunity to 'filter'.

 

Whatever people might think of the work permit system, in my view it has served the island reasonably well, and has been a critical factor helping to maintain major cultural and societal differences between the UK/ROW (predominately the UK) and the island - those very cultural and societal differences that many of the people who came to settle here initially sought, and most of us here regularly espouse e.g. relatively low crime, safer streets, little/no graffitti etc. Few people come here to live because of our Viking history. It so happens, that the work permit system is also closely linked to our economy, which helps keep unemployment to a minimum by bringing in only those who are needed - in conjunction with a benefits system, that has little room for those seeking to not contribute and settle here on benefits. All this along with a relatively independent tax system, and the ability to force people who break the rules of the work permit system, or visitors who do so, off island e.g. following criminal activity, help us all to have a relatively high standard and quality of life - envied by many in the UK, and an infrastructure spend, though currently relatively badly managed, which you would not find in many places with a population of 80,000.

 

I don't see such a 'filter' through such criminal record checks as being 'fascist', as I cannot see the logic that links 'fascism' to a check of publically available information such as criminal records, or lists of those who are currently required to answer for alleged crimes (i.e. 'wanted by police') - provided of course that steps are taken to ensure fairness e.g. within the context of the islands' rehabiliation of offenders act, and that people coming from intolerent or cruel jurisdictions who happen to have been 'conveniently' accused of crimes by that state e.g. being a member of the political opposition etc. are treated fairly. I don't see it as fascist, because I believe 'fascism' to be that summed up by George Orwell: "By ‘Fascism’ they mean, roughly speaking, something cruel, unscrupulous, arrogant, obscurantist, anti-liberal and anti-working-class. Except for the relatively small number of Fascist sympathizers, almost any English person would accept ‘bully’ as a synonym for ‘Fascist’. That is about as near to a definition as this much-abused word has come".

 

The rule of law, its' outcomes and decisions, have been in the public domain for 700 years, built into society via the Magna Carta and habeas corpus etc. I believe, like the vast majority of people in the UK and on the island, in the law i.e. "No man is above the law and no man is below it; nor do we ask any man's permission when we ask him to obey it. Obedience to the law is demanded as a right; not asked as a favor." (Roosevelt, and remember much of the US constitution was based on Magna Carta too). So is it 'fascist' (cruel, unscrupulous, arrogant, obscurantist, anti-liberal, or the tactics of a bully) to ask to ensure that people settling here are willing to, and do by their deeds, obey those principles too? That said, I do believe that many laws recently introduced in the UK and the island, and many popularist actions and opinions are inherently fascist in nature, though that is perhaps for another thread.

 

IMO, a properly assessed work permit 'filter' (including a basic assessment of criminality) simply ensures that we are less likely to allow those who are wanted by the police, or those people whose convictions are 'not spent' an opportunity to settle here, which has the benefits of protecting the employer, and as an aside just happens to lower the associated risks and costs to our society, whilst helping to maintain those all important cultural and societal differences - which when you actually analyse them, mainly come down to levels of criminality, the types of people that live here (which is similar), and the scenery. In my view that criminal record assessment should also include members of the same family, likely to settle here as a result of the work permit being granted, as again, this is no unfair investigation into their private life, only that which is in the public domain and a matter of record (no pun intended) for hundreds of years. IMO, it should also be extended to an immigration act on the island, as personally, I don't see any difference between someone who has stolen an apple, or been convicted of fraud, and someone who retires here and 'steals' care funds from a system he/she has not paid into. Such immigration checks would also deter criminals with funds from settling here.

 

They carry out such criminal record checks on potential immigrants in many other countries e.g. Australia, Canada, U.S. etc. - a right that we should have and always fight to keep IMO, because 'open borders' are simply asking for trouble to arrive here. We have a great opportunity to learn from the mistakes of the UK and EU, but I certainly don't think it is 'fascist' to welcome all but those who have proven they have recently operated, or are operating, outside the boundaries of a liberal-democratic society which is founded on the basic principles of law. If anything IMO, it would be 'fascist' (cruel, unscrupulous, arrogant, obscurantist, anti-liberal and the actions of a bully) for other nations (or our own government) to take that right of self protection away from us, whilst the same principles remain firmly entrenched in the border polices of other nations and the EU.

[Freggyragh]

Albert, you say that "Few people come to live here because of our Viking history". I would argue that our Norse - Gael heritage is the basis of the Manx outlook on the world. The Norse and Gaels both resisted the Romans and imperialism. The Norse left Norway because they refused to pay high-taxes to avaricious Norwegian kings. The Gaels had one of the earliest written legal codes in Europe - the so-called 'Brehon Laws' (Breh - 'judge', the Manx name Brew). These laws establish the limited rights of petty rulers and the equality of women. The Norse established Tynwald, probably along similar lines to the earlier Gaelic system. The spirit of community co-operation, the importance of the family, the high value placed on education, the aversion to taxation, the spirit of independence, the willingness to learn from other cultures - they are all values rooted in the Norse - Gael cultural inheritance. And like the Norse, and the Gael, common purpose and common values are, to me a far better basis of identity than daft notions of racial purity. The word 'fascist' comes from the rods used to clear the riff raff out of the way for the grandees of Ancient Rome - who had enslaved most of Europe - but neither the Norse or the Gaels.

[manxy]

Well said Albert

[Freggyragh]

Re-reading the thread I see I have inadvertently tried to steer the discussion off towards my Kingdom of the Isles obsession - sorry. Yes, Albert is quite right. Protocol 3 prevents naturalization as Manx - and discriminates against those the state declare to be Manx - people born here without a recent family link to the UK, or 5 continous years living there. On the other hand, we don't have the power to vet people moving here. Most immigrants, in any society, are extremely law abiding - generally as an immigrant you stand out too much and are afraid of a justice system you don't understand. On the other hand, there are plenty of crims who need to move on. Albert is dead right - there is nothing fascist about vetting people - it doesn't mean we are anti-immigrant, it means we want to know a bit about who we are letting in. The citizenship test stuff needs looking at too - it is ridiculously expensive and some of the questions that have been used are absolutely ridiculous. Do you know what 'Ayre' means, or how long the Sulby river is? These questions were on the test last year. What we really should be asking is:

 

1) Do you have a police reference from a jursdiction we can trust that declares you have no criminal convictions for at least the last twenty years?

 

2) Do you intend to engage in lawful employment or otherwise contribute to your community?

 

3) Are you going to do any of the following;

 

Display your country of origin's national flag all over your car, person and property?

Whinge about a pension system you have not contributed to?

Engage in property development with no regard to local sentiment?

Restrict marriage of your offspring to people of the same ethnic group / religious cult ?

Demand that your cultural prejudices be respected above all others?

Overuse the expression "When I ..."

Use 'island' when you mean 'Manx'.

 

Answer yes and provide proof for 1 and 2, and answer no to 3 and that should be about enough.

[localyokel]

3) Are you going to do any of the following;

 

Display your country of origin's national flag all over your car, person and property?

 

That really gets me that one, and its invariably always south africans with the bumper stickers.

[manxy]

I'm flabbergasted 'La_Dolce_Vita' as to the crock of goo you've wrote. It's something that I'd expect from a criminal or ex criminal to write.

Anyone saying that they don't mind turning a blind eye to illegal events, happenings or encouraging the same is morally wrong and against the very laws of the island.

 

I don't see most illegal drug taking as a problem. Cannabis, ketamine, ecstacy, speed, even most cocaine use, I don't see these as being social problems. Heroin and alcohol are a different matter. To crack down very hard on illegal drugs but not alcohol is absolute hypocrisy

 

Firstly, I see nothing wrong in people making informed choices on what drugs they want to take. It should be up to them and should not be criminalised.

 

But I would agree that by preventing anyone who enters the Isle of Man who has a criminal record will ensure that those entering may be less likely to commit crimes rather than a system does not check but this is at the expense of peoples liberty's.

 

"Are you always this stupid or are you making a special effort today?" Simply put, If you or anyone else doesn't like the laws on the island, then go through the correct procedures to get it changed. Until then, the laws have been put in place for a reason and although it won't make everyone happy, it's a good foundation to be built on.

 

Hurrah! Some sense at last about restricting some peoples liberty and if that means safe guarding the people on the island to walk about and enjoy the islands beauty, then so be it. To be scared of walking the streets is depriving people of their liberty, IMO I think that this would be more important to society in general.

 

Albert's thread is more in depth than mine and provides more understanding to the problem and one hopes that permits are kept in place, to keep the undesirables out, as it would be a crying shame to see this lovely island going to ruin.

 

Also nice follow up Freggyragh

[hmc]

The Control of Employment Act which governs the work permit process, was introduced simply to try and ensure that 'local' workers were not disadvantaged -not as some kind of immigration control. As the Island is now part of the European Common Travel Area, it means that there are open borders through which people from Europe can travel freely, without the necessity for controls of any sort. The immigration service are not really interested in people from Europe because of this.

 

This is one of the 'spin offs' of our relationship with Europe, and there is currently no legislation which requires anyone from Europe to be vetted in any way when they come to the Island. The Work Permit authorities do not have the power in law to demand that people applying for permits provide any kind of Police Clearance Certificate, or to insist that people are vetted by the Police. People who come to live here from outside of Europe are required to go through a more thorough immigration process.

 

If the Government wants people coming to the Island to be thoroughly vetted, it may well affect our relationship with Europe, and it will require a change in the law.

[keyboarder]

Hurrah! Some sense at last about restricting some peoples liberty and if that means safe guarding the people on the island to walk about and enjoy the islands beauty, then so be it. To be scared of walking the streets is depriving people of their liberty, IMO I think that this would be more important to society in general.

You're in danger of sounding paranoid. People might feel a little safer if your liberty were restricted.

[Keyborer]

Hurrah! Some sense at last about restricting some peoples liberty and if that means safe guarding the people on the island to walk about and enjoy the islands beauty, then so be it. To be scared of walking the streets is depriving people of their liberty, IMO I think that this would be more important to society in general.

You're in danger of sounding paranoid. People might feel a little safer if your liberty were restricted.

 

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[Freggyragh]

Is it only me who enjoys keyboarder's posts? Devil's advocate he may be - but his comments are sharp and to the point.

[Lonan3]

3) Are you going to do any of the following;

 

Display your country of origin's national flag all over your car, person and property?

 

That really gets me that one, and its invariably always south africans with the bumper stickers.

It's when 'Inger-land' are playing (and generally losing) a football match and all the red-cross freaks come out of the woodwork that the flag-flying becomes really annoying. What's even more annoying is that the majority are being flown by Manx people!

 

Freggyragh

Is it only me who enjoys keyboarder's posts?

Not quite. Keyboarder enjoys them too.