Inefficient - Not Our Government....

[Freggyragh]

Frances, you culd have looked through some basic Manx lessons or asked someone before putting so much faith in Roeder's translation.

 

ta = substantive verb 'to be' present tense.

 

From Cregeen's Manx - English Dictionary (1835):

 

Dooinney, S. M. a man.

Ny, conj. or. nor; as, eshyn ny mish (he or I)

Daa, a. two, the dual number.

 

(Daa lenites to ghaa in the expression dooinney ny ghaa - a man or two.)

 

'Many' in Manx would be ram, mooarane, ymmodee, palçhey, or, perhaps dy liooar. If the idiom was asserting, rather than plainly mentioning that there were 'many' the best expressions are shimmey or shlee.

 

But, Frances, I am well aware of your bias. No doubt you will trust Roeder, who took holidays here and corresponded (in English) with Neddy Beg Hom Ruy, but never claimed fluency in Manx, rather than accept the words of Cregeen, who was a Manxman. Particularly if it suits your purpose.

[Frances]

not sure what 'my purpose' is (except at times to gently wind up a man or two) - do you not think given the proverb that the 'man or two' was itself rather a deliberate understatement and should be read in the same poetic way that Roeder gave the translation - maybe you could check out his other translations as not having Manx I do find proofreading very difficult - re thearticle I thought it was written in a neutral tone ?

[Declan]

'a man or two' means the phenomenon is not unknown

'many's the man' means the the phenomenon is common.

 

Ahh, sorry, I was thinking about the change in the second line.

[Freggyragh]

To be honest Francis I found the article difficult to follow. You acknowledge the Manx custom and law that a child conceived outside wedlock was not considered illegitimate if the parents married within two years of the birth - but the sources you quote do not make clear if they consider this as a criteria for legitimacy or not. - It is not clear if you are judging the Manx by their own standards or not - at least that is how it seemed to me.

 

You also make make sweeping generalisations about the moral character of the Irish without offering any evidence.

 

You use the Manx saying as folk evidence of a high incidence of illegitimacy, and I am just pointing out that, whilst Roeder's translation may be convenient for your thesis, it is not accurate. And, yes, 'There's a man or two' I will agree could be a deliberate understatement - it isn't saying there are literally only one or two such cases - but it is a stretch to change this to 'Many's the man'.

 

I am not sure what your purpose was in writing the article, but it seemed to me that you were saying that rates of illegitimacy here were relatively high. You may think you are only winding up 'a man or two' - but if I were to say the English are a shower of bastards I think you would, rightfully, try to correct me.

[Sparky]

So does all that mean it's alright to marry your sister?

[Frances]

my comment re Irish (to be read in context of link to Forrest's 1890's book) was:

Assuming the Irish community living among the Manx behaved similarly as those in all British cities then the reputation of 'Little Ireland' in Douglas was not based on any moral laxity amongst them

I don't see any criticism here - maybe I should have included the link to a sociology study which looked at illegitimacy figures in English cities tho I did give the collection of papers edited by Laslett - Irish Roman Catholics did not figure as bearers of illegitimate children though I could have added that Irish men away from the 'civilising' influence of their womenfolk did have a reputation for drink + violence which was borne out by the court statistics.

 

I'm happy if you want to suggest rewrites of sections - it was part of many more pages dealing with various issues in genealogy