Yet Another Smoking Thread

[bluemonday]

"Every light carries a shadow"

B5

[Albert Tatlock]

Mr Spock summed it up better.

 

The needs of the many, outweigh the needs of the few

 

Which is what we have here.

Not going by numerous polls and surveys.

 

Don't forget, Mr Spock also said: "It is curious how often you humans manage to obtain that which you do not want".

[ai_Droid]

Not going by numerous polls and surveys.

 

Don't forget, Mr Spock also said: "It is curious how often you humans manage to obtain that which you do not want".

 

You don't want it, but you can't see past the end of your ignorant nose.

[Lonan3]

Mr Spock summed it up better.

 

The needs of the many, outweigh the needs of the few

 

Which is what we have here.

Paraphrasing Jeremy Bentham (1748-1832) "It is the greatest good to the greatest number of people which is the measure of right and wrong.

 

Albert Tatlock Today, 02:03 PM Post #29

 

Summed up best by George Orwell (oh how frequently his warnings seem to appear these days):

 

And who, I wonder, could possibly be responsible for that?

[Albert Tatlock]

Not going by numerous polls and surveys.

 

Don't forget, Mr Spock also said: "It is curious how often you humans manage to obtain that which you do not want".

 

You don't want it, but you can't see past the end of your ignorant nose.

Once again, you fire off and don't read the posts - we were talking specifically about a compromise of smoking and non smoking establishments, and a truly democratic process that would more likely have led to that. I'm not getting onto a cyclical debate with you again - when I have paint to watch dry as I am decorating today.

[ai_Droid]

Once again, you fire off and don't read the posts - we were talking specifically about a compromise of smoking and non smoking establishments, and a truly democratic process that would more likely have led to that. I'm not getting onto a cyclical debate with you again - when I have paint to watch dry as I am decorating today.

 

 

Er, no, you were ranting on your soapbox from your own selfish agenda as usual. Nobody else was talking about that at all.

 

You don't get into a debate with anyone, most other people just ingore your bollocks, haven't you noticed?

[Chinahand]

Summed up best by George Orwell (oh how frequently his warnings seem to appear these days):

 

"In the case of a word like DEMOCRACY, not only is there no agreed definition, but the attempt to make one is resisted from all sides. It is almost universally felt that when we call a country democratic we are praising it: consequently the defenders of every kind of régime claim that it is a democracy, and fear that they might have to stop using the word if it were tied down to any one meaning. Words of this kind are often used in a consciously dishonest way. That is, the person who uses them has his own private definition, but allows his hearer to think he means something quite different."

 

-George Orwell, Politics and the English Language

Totally off topic of course, but the universal praise of democracy is no longer true across the political spectrums - as Orwell says this used to be so, with various People's Democracies vying with Federal ones etc - I've said it before but I think Ronald Regans summed it up quite well with his quip that the difference between a People's Democracy and a Democracy is the same as the difference between a straight jacket and a jacket, but nowadays Democracy can be portayed as a dirty word.

 

Good old Al Qaeda, and the beardy wierdies have declared jihad on Democracy calling it Satanic and against Allah's will. Wonder if the Old Goat will agree or disagree with this?!

 

AFAIC it sums up their arrogance and is something reasonably unique in modern political theory. Hopefully it will mean little with the Taliban being its only adherents with any control of a state, but Saudi is a risk - interestingly Iran is far more democratic than Saudi, though obviously still far from ideal but there are stong currents wanting further democratic reforms in that Islamic Republic!

 

But Albert for all your whingings - by YOUR understanding is anywhere a democracy - which countries are more democratic than the IOM or the UK - and how does your ranking fit in with their policies on smoking bans?!

[Lonan3]

Just to make a change from Orwell, how about Aldous Huxley:

 

"And it seems to me perfectly in the cards that there will be within the next generation or so a pharmacological method of making people love their servitude, and producing...a kind of painless concentration camp for entire societies, so that people will in fact have their liberties taken away from them but will rather enjoy it, because they will be distracted from any desire to rebel by propaganda, brainwashing, or brainwashing enhanced by pharmacological methods."

[Albert Tatlock]

But Albert for all your whingings - by YOUR understanding is anywhere a democracy - which countries are more democratic than the IOM or the UK - and how does your ranking fit in with their policies on smoking bans?!

Firstly, I do not consider arguments against what I consider to be a flawed democracy as whinging.

 

Have a read of this (The Economist Intelligence Unit’s index of democracy) for starters. Notice here the definitions of 'flawed' and 'full' democracies and the 0.2 difference between the two categories for the UK.

[ai_Droid]

Firstly, I do not consider arguments against what I consider to be a flawed democracy as whinging.

 

Have a read of this (The Economist Intelligence Unit’s index of democracy) for starters. Notice here the definitions of 'flawed' and 'full' democracies and the 0.2 difference between the two categories for the UK.

 

Interesting, so the top five:

 

1. Sweden - Banned smoking in public places in 2005

2. Iceland - Smoking is banned in all public places

3. Netherlands - Smoking banned from 2008 in public spaces, but smoking rooms allowed but you can't have food or drink are served in em.

4. Norway - Smoking completely banned in public places since 2004

5. Denmark - like the netherlands, banned apart from rooms where no drinks or food can be served.

 

So smoking bans are undemocratic are they?

[Albert Tatlock]

Firstly, I do not consider arguments against what I consider to be a flawed democracy as whinging.

 

Have a read of this (The Economist Intelligence Unit’s index of democracy) for starters. Notice here the definitions of 'flawed' and 'full' democracies and the 0.2 difference between the two categories for the UK.

 

Interesting, so the top five:

 

1. Sweden - Banned smoking in public places in 2005

 

So smoking bans are undemocratic are they?

That report refers to degree of democracy as seen today. If we go back to the orginal point; I know you often have difficulty with this so please bear with me; - that the orginal meaning of democracy was government by the people - then as discussed earlier, by the original definition of democracy, all of these places are not actually true democracies - just a version of democracy that has evolved from the original meaning e.g. most are republics or variations.

 

If the UK were truly a democracy by the orginal definition, then the UK polls and surveys indicate that the result i.e. in the case of a true democracy, a referendum result - would have resulted in the compromise of smoking and non-smoking premises.

 

You persist in picking points to suit your own point of view, whilst, as again in this case, ignoring and distorting the original point. Anyone with half a brain can do this, and most people with half a brain usually do.

[ai_Droid]

You persist in picking points to suit your own point of view, whilst, as again in this case, ignoring and distorting the original point. Anyone with half a brain can do this, and most people with half a brain usually do.

 

Picking points to suit my point my arse, that was your link showing how woeful the UK is when rated vs other democracies. But look, on that very scale, other countries that banned smoking score high. So either the list is bollocks, or your reasoning is. Do they have NuShite in Sweden Albert?

 

Either way, you're full of it, and are only interest in this issue because you're a smoker. You've lost, you can't make others suffer your filthy habit any longer.

 

Good.

[Albert Tatlock]

Either way, you're full of it, and are only interest in this issue because you're a smoker. You've lost, you can't make others suffer your filthy habit any longer.

 

Good.

Finally I got your point - though admittedly it took me 30 minutes of thumping my head against the wall, and making my ears, eyes and nose bleed in the process.

 

I suddenly see now why my arguing: against a centralised government monitored ID database, for an elected LC and for proportional representation and a fair and representative electoral system etc. for prison reform and against the lynch mob and hang em high brigade, for facilities/activities for yoofs to keep them off the streets, and for separate facilities for smokers to carry out a perfectly legal activity etc. etc. - are all clearly and simply linked to my desperation for a fag, and nothing to do with wanting to live in a stable liberal democracy at all.

 

Thanks for that.

[triskelion]

That report refers to degree of democracy as seen today. If we go back to the orginal point; I know you often have difficulty with this so please bear with me; - that the orginal meaning of democracy was government by the people - then as discussed earlier, by the original definition of democracy, all of these places are not actually true democracies - just a version of democracy that has evolved from the original meaning e.g. most are republics or variations.

 

If the UK were truly a democracy by the orginal definition, then the UK polls and surveys indicate that the result i.e. in the case of a true democracy, a referendum result - would have resulted in the compromise of smoking and non-smoking premises.

 

You persist in picking points to suit your own point of view, whilst, as again in this case, ignoring and distorting the original point. Anyone with half a brain can do this, and most people with half a brain usually do.

No, the original meaning of democracy was not 'government by the people.' Especially as only adult free men had the vote when the word came about, and that our democratic heritage is not Hellenic in origin. Instead, the term has been applied retroactively and variation in definition does not mean bastardisation.

 

You insist on basing your entire position on the idea that 'Government by the people' is the best and purest form of democracy. It is probable you do this in this instance because it would likely produce a result favourable towards you. Even in this scenario, your referendum would have completely overridden the rights of the most vulnerable in this case, namely the bar and restaurant staff. Those that do such work rarely have much in the way of alternatives available, and unquestionably their right to work in a safe environment trumps the liberty of a smoker to do so in an enclosed environment.

[ai_Droid]

Finally I got your point - though admittedly it took me 30 minutes of thumping my head against the wall, and making my ears, eyes and nose bleed in the process.

 

Yes, we know you're hard of thinking, no need to remind us. I'm not talking about any of your other posts regarding democracies, I'm talking about this thread. Let's make it simple, you said:

 

Had the UK and the island been true democracies, there are strong indications (polls/surveys etc.) that there would have been a compromise over the smoking ban, resulting in a mix of smoking and non-smoking premises.

 

The provided a list of apparent true democracies, who also banned smoking and don't provide a mix of smoking and non smoking premisis. So your democracy chart is bollocks, by your own definition, right?