jimbms Posted March 7, 2008 Share Posted March 7, 2008 Ok no point in bickering, lets put it a simple way, I have to stand in enclosed spaces i.e. pubs inhaling the by-product of smokers pleasure, namely smoke, so I think it only fair that I gave them the by-product of my pleasure which is drinking, so if you wish to smoke near me in a pub I think it only fair I can piss in your drink. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert Tatlock Posted March 7, 2008 Share Posted March 7, 2008 You insist on basing your entire position on the idea that 'Government by the people' is the best and purest form of democracy. It is probable you do this in this instance because it would likely produce a result favourable towards you. Even in this scenario, your referendum would have completely overridden the rights of the most vulnerable in this case, namely the bar and restaurant staff. Those that do such work rarely have much in the way of alternatives available, and unquestionably their right to work in a safe environment trumps the liberty of a smoker to do so in an enclosed environment. You are putting words in my mouth, I didn't actually say it would be the 'best and purest form of democracy', though I would agree it is the purest. As do many people, I have my own ideas as to what would make for an ideal liberal democracy in the modern world. As for workers - as well as all of the technological solutions available to avoid the need to do so, their right to choose to work 'in an enclosed environment' if they so wish, should also have been taken into account - as numerous bar staff are smokers themselves. Such a compromise (80% : 20% premises) was perfectly achievable. Using H&S to hide behind is a weak argument IMO, and if it is to be used, it should be used to ban tobacco completely if the H&S argument has any credibility at all. These are my final words on this subject in this thread, as I do not intend to go through this pointless recycling of arguments which have been gone over in numerous threads on MF. All I know is that many people as a result of this do not feel that they live in a liberal democracy at all, and cannot understand why, if they so choose, they could not set up, work in and operate separate establishments and have let the market (the public) decide - with limited legislation to ensure the rights and portection of non-smokers in say food establishments - instead of the lobbying for a level playing field done by the major pub associations that resulted in a total ban in the UK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pongo Posted March 7, 2008 Share Posted March 7, 2008 I have my own ideas as to what would make for an ideal liberal democracy in the modern world. Chilling words Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Take Posted March 7, 2008 Share Posted March 7, 2008 AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH HHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Peters Posted March 7, 2008 Share Posted March 7, 2008 I could go on, but I'm too tired and dispirited. I'd recommend anyone who hasn't seen them to watch some Bill Hicks clips on YouTube. The same Bill Hicks that died of cancer? Not a smoking-related cancer, no, you silly dogbot. But even if it was, he was still able to get to the nub of government by scoundrels and the brainwashing of entire nations in a fraction of the words it would take me or Noam Chomsky. And his work is much funnier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Login Posted March 7, 2008 Share Posted March 7, 2008 A democracy is when ALL the people make the decisions. A Republic, on the other hand is where representives are elected by the people to speak for them and make decisions for them. So basically there is no democracy anywhere in the world as I am not aware of any county where many decisions let alone evert decision goes to a public vote which would appear be your definition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pongo Posted March 7, 2008 Share Posted March 7, 2008 he was still able to get to the nub of government by scoundrels and the brainwashing of entire nations in a fraction of the words it would take me or Noam Chomsky. And his work is much funnier. It's easier to be funny when you are doing something down than when you are trying to explain why something is worthwhile. I've watched hours of Bill Hicks and he was funny at the time. I like Hunter Thompson too; well his Nixon era stuff anyhow. I know you've mentioned him before. But PJ O'Rourke is equally funny. In both cases it isn't ultimately what they are saying which is funny. It tends to be how it sounds which is funny. Often the actual facts don't often stand up to a thorough analysis. I can't remember Bill Hicks ever making a funny joke about how things should be, or what he would have practically done differently. I guess that just wouldn't have been funny. That would be alternative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Sausages Posted March 7, 2008 Share Posted March 7, 2008 I could go on, but I'm too tired and dispirited. I'd recommend anyone who hasn't seen them to watch some Bill Hicks clips on YouTube. The same Bill Hicks that died of cancer? Not a smoking-related cancer, no, you silly dogbot. Pancreatic cancer, wasn't it? "Cigarette smoking is considered to be the most significant and avoidable risk factor for pancreatic cancer." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pancreatic_cancer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slim Posted March 7, 2008 Share Posted March 7, 2008 So basically there is no democracy anywhere in the world as I am not aware of any county where many decisions let alone evert decision goes to a public vote which would appear be your definition. And rightly so. People are stupid, the last thing you want to do is ask them to decide what's good for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Login Posted March 7, 2008 Share Posted March 7, 2008 So basically there is no democracy anywhere in the world as I am not aware of any county where many decisions let alone evert decision goes to a public vote which would appear be your definition. And rightly so. People are stupid, the last thing you want to do is ask them to decide what's good for them. Yep because we would all vote for the easy option whether or not it all added up: e.g lower taxes - yes, more spent on health care - yes, higher spending on education - yes. Basically imagine a world run by Peter Karran, it may be great having a guy banging a drum for populist issues but you need somebody to actually work out if and how they can be afforded Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twitch Posted March 8, 2008 Share Posted March 8, 2008 Anyone fancy a bit of improvisation down the Rovers come the end of the month? http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/mar/08/usa.smoking Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinahand Posted March 8, 2008 Share Posted March 8, 2008 Cough A leading hospital says up to a third of the children it treats for certain conditions are ill because their parents smoke in front of them. Dr Steve Ryan, Medical Director of Liverpool's Alder Hey Hospital, says bronchitis, asthma and ear infections could be cut if parents quit smoking. Wonder how many are from the IOM? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Peters Posted March 8, 2008 Share Posted March 8, 2008 Mr Sausages and Droid - I did not know that. About a link between pancreatic cancer and smoking. So I apologise and stand corrected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThingsThatGoFlirInTheShla Posted March 15, 2008 Share Posted March 15, 2008 I'm a smoker... It is a violation of our rights but then again it is also unpleasant on those who wish not to inhale smoke. I went to Switzerland in December, where you can smoke inside. It was fantastic being able to do that again. This argument can only continue going round in circles. It is our right to do what we like to our bodies. It is our right to do what we want, where we want. It is not our right to inflict something on someone else. but its also not their right to tell us what to do. best solution? Bring smoking areas back but ventilate them well.. There are 'air walls' that have been developed, which separate spaces from odours, gases and smoke. Why not bring the smoking area in to the modern era.. then we could all be happy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keyboarder Posted March 15, 2008 Share Posted March 15, 2008 It may be your right to be able to move to Switzerland. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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