triskelion Posted February 28, 2008 Share Posted February 28, 2008 Oh come on, offshore really wouldn't be large enough scale to hinder shipping. And how is a wind turbine any more ugly than a lighthouse on shore? It's just what you're used to. There's quite a few places, either on high ground or coastal areas that turbines could be erected where very few people would ever see them. Yes there is an environmental impact to the installation and construction of turbines, but there's no shortage of research here, and the current figures are very good, in the region of six months payback for a modern turbine. We're very well placed for them, they're ideal. Domestic ones are improving too, but are impractical at the moment for a number of reasons. I personally think the gas station was a good call, as it has proven to be reliable, and is considerably cheaper than oil would have been. At this point in time there is no real substitute for fossil fuel generation. A double cable for fault tolerance to the UK grid? Jersey does well, as it gets most of it's power from the french national grid which is largely nuclear. Some good points in your post, but I'm not sure the islands chippies generate enough oil to do anything significant? Nice response. I suppose you are right about the visual impact. There are definetely a lot of places, especially on coasts from Port Erin to Peel and Douglas to Ramsey where they would barely be noticed. I'm still concerned about expense, the risk of storm damage and damage to the marine environment, but you've convinced me they are more workable than I made out. I'm hesitant about importing electricity mostly because I like the idea of the Island being a net exporter of energy. With electricity being in the hands of single state-owned utility, it has the potential to be a strong source of income for the Island in the future. The idea of having UK customers paying off the MEA's debt appeals to me as well. To be honest I have no idea how much waste oil the Island's chippies produce, but it is still something worth investigating. There are other places using deep fat fryers, most places serving meals I would guess. Perhaps even having an Island-wide cooking oil recycling scheme is feasible. Even there isn't sufficient volumes for it be worth investing in the infrastructure for transport use, though I think there is, it could be used to dilute heating oil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ai_Droid Posted February 29, 2008 Share Posted February 29, 2008 Nice response. I suppose you are right about the visual impact. There are definetely a lot of places, especially on coasts from Port Erin to Peel and Douglas to Ramsey where they would barely be noticed. I'm still concerned about expense, the risk of storm damage and damage to the marine environment, but you've convinced me they are more workable than I made out. They're not an immature tech now, they're very common in other countries, even in mainland UK. Any sort of maintenance has to be compared with the current powerstation, and I recon turbines would come out on top. The real problem with turbines is that their power output is pitiful, so you're right in that they wont completely replace our fossil fueled plant, and currently the only thing that will is nuclear power. That doesn't mean we shouldn't augment our power generation with some renewables though, other than burning rubbish. I'm hesitant about importing electricity mostly because I like the idea of the Island being a net exporter of energy. With electricity being in the hands of single state-owned utility, it has the potential to be a strong source of income for the Island in the future. The idea of having UK customers paying off the MEA's debt appeals to me as well. That's never going to happen with a gas turbine. How is it ever going to be cost effective to import gas from the UK, burn it, and export the power back at a profit? It could happen with renewables, as a small island, we've a lot of coast per population, so levee style tidal could work for us, as well as ofshore turbines. To be honest I have no idea how much waste oil the Island's chippies produce, but it is still something worth investigating. There are other places using deep fat fryers, most places serving meals I would guess. Perhaps even having an Island-wide cooking oil recycling scheme is feasible. Even there isn't sufficient volumes for it be worth investing in the infrastructure for transport use, though I think there is, it could be used to dilute heating oil. Perhaps it could help certainly. Very hard to make such schemes worth while though, given the fuel needed to collect it and then re-process. You need large volumes really, and I can't see the islands chippies producing that much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert Tatlock Posted February 29, 2008 Share Posted February 29, 2008 They're not an immature tech now, they're very common in other countries, even in mainland UK. Any sort of maintenance has to be compared with the current powerstation, and I recon turbines would come out on top. The real problem with turbines is that their power output is pitiful, so you're right in that they wont completely replace our fossil fueled plant, and currently the only thing that will is nuclear power. That doesn't mean we shouldn't augment our power generation with some renewables though, other than burning rubbish. As has been mentioned, I can't see why we couldn't have our own major installation off Jurby. Something like 40% of all of the wind energy in Europe is around the UK. Pulrose has a capacity of almost 50MW, Peel a capacity of nearly 40MW, a diesel generating station at Ramsey with a capacity of 7MW, and a small hydro station at Sulby with a capacity of 1.0MW = 98MW or 0.1 Gigawatt total. Approximately 1000 large wind turbines produce a gigawatt, and so 100 would in theory meet the needs of the island, but as they are not always 100% efficient (and the wind is not always blowing) you would need more and still need the power stations of course - but the idea would be that the power stations would not be operating anywhere near full capacity much of the time. (Those figures are based on a Horizontal axis wind turbine, the Enercon model E-66 wind energy converter, in Germany. The tower is 98 meters high, with a rotor diameter of 70 meters.) You would probably be talking about at least £500K each for these turbines, so a project to offset, say, the Peel station would be likely to be around the £30 - £40 million area, including surveys, enquiries and associated infrastructure. Since 1993 in the UK Wind Turbine generation has risen from 0.25 gigawatt to 2 gigawatts today. This is why I think it would be a good industry to give major tax breaks to on the island (far greater than the UK and Europe) and one of those high-tech industries (I keep banging on about) that we should encourage to locate here, bringing additional engineering/manufacturing/shipping jobs over here. ...(£30M-£40M) which funnily enough, is the equivalent of the cost of an unnecessary Runway End Safety Area (RESA) these days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
triskelion Posted February 29, 2008 Share Posted February 29, 2008 That's never going to happen with a gas turbine. How is it ever going to be cost effective to import gas from the UK, burn it, and export the power back at a profit? It could happen with renewables, as a small island, we've a lot of coast per population, so levee style tidal could work for us, as well as ofshore turbines. That depends on the gas and electricity transmission costs, which I have no idea about. It might potentially become economic during the UK's forthcoming energy gap, but I take your point. However, we need the Pulrose station at present to maintain grid stability and security of supply, not to mention back-up for renewables. The digestors I mentioned, the Energy-to-Waste plant, and possibly an enlargened hydro-plant in Sulby could do this to an extent, but not sufficiently in the near future. So, if need the gas power plant anyway, and even arch-anti-capitalist uber-environmentalist George Monbiot would say we do, then our renewable energy could be sold at a premium to green tariff in the UK. Anyway, the reason I originally posted my ideas is because they could realistically be done in a single MHK term, which I'm not sure wind turbines could. The much bigger challenge is how we would heat out homes without fossil fuels. Wood CHP is probably the best bet at the minute, as the saw mill produces a sizeable amount of waste wood, and willow forests could be planted for them. I would say efficiency should come first though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert Tatlock Posted February 29, 2008 Share Posted February 29, 2008 The much bigger challenge is how we would heat out homes without fossil fuels. We could put a heat exchanger in at Tynwald - with all that hot air that would sort it. Though I suppose it would still be classed as 'old fossil' fuelled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Flynn Posted February 29, 2008 Author Share Posted February 29, 2008 This is the full text: THE THINKING WALL at ENERGY EXPO 2008 February 21-23 2008 At the Expo, Island 21 set up a “Thinking Wall” offering visitors the opportunity to have their say on what was most concerning them. There were three sections: What we like best about the Isle of Man What we like least about the Isle of Man and What we would like to see happening Opinions and ideas ranged widely, of course, and the fact that this was an Energy Expo obviously influenced comments. Here the comments and suggestions are roughly grouped by area: WHAT DO YOU LIKE MOST? Great variety of landscapes and environment in small area – a microcosm Unique Island - perfect for setting up renewable energy systems Safe for children Nice place for children Safe for children The peace, quiet, tranquillity Heritage Peace Way of life relatively peaceful and community-aware Generally law-abiding Low level of crime We love the beautiful countryside Lovely flowers Footpaths for walking Fresh air All the beautiful nature walks and animal reserves It's still a beautiful place. The coastline is wonderful - just don't build too many housing estates on too many green fields! The Bunscoill Laxey Wheel Free travel passes for “seniors” - cuts down on car use Mild winter Facilities No tower blocks! Farmers' markets Increasing pride in local food and products Small marina, Port St Mary Churches – church cafe, social support Free prescriptions and low-charge prescriptions Work permit system helps - protects local jobs and doesn't stop people with skills I love it – I am Manx WHAT DO YOU LIKE LEAST? The Island's complete dependence on using fossil fuels Government attitude to renewables Increasing influence and demands of finance sector – taking over the Island Constant pressure for “growth” Too many houses Monopoly of major developments Too much building in the wrong places All new houses built in fields – animals are being killed! High costs of, for example, fuel, food, transport off the Isle of Man Cost of getting off the Island Steam Packet monopoly Large supermarkets Damp Violence Excessive planning restrictions in conservation areas At times the planning department does not respect conservation of buildings We don't like rubbish everywhere Marinas blocking harbour access for fishermen Poor state of some footpaths – Millennium Way in poor condition Huge demands on health care and education with larger population Large prison - instead of tackling underlying issues, e.g. spending more on mental health care WHAT WOULD YOU LIKE TO SEE HAPPENING? Transport: Better public transport signage Commuter trams Restored rail link between Ramsey and Peel Main-line trams and trains treated as normal means of transport, not curiosities for tourists Get the trams back on the tracks A proper, inexpensive, well organised public transport system More public transport – buses, trains and trams - especially to and from airport and hospital Properly built footpaths in suburban areas, so people can walk, push buggies, etc. to shops and other amenities Fewer cars on roads Power: More renewables Solar panels and wind power Wind power anywhere Use the water wheels in Laxey Progress “Canute” idea Renewables, please Use tides and winds for energy purposes Wind turbines Use existing water wheels Wind farms - they can be beautiful! Turbines in rivers Off-shore wind farms Renewables There is plenty of wind here – let's use it to make electricity More use of tides and winds for energy purposes Recycling: More recycling Need a salvage yard Recycling – why can't the Island lead the way? More recycling Swap and exchange facilities at all civic amenity sites Kerbside recycling Kerbside recycling – and incentives to encourage it Various: Eco-friendly houses No more houses Homes for homeless people Stop/reduce immigration More local/organic veg in shops and markets Less waste of food More push for local food More beach clean-ups Better public loos Fair Trade “CittaSlow” for the Isle of Man? More qualified workmen needed Tax on bottled water We don't need power showers More confidence in local knowledge Government attitudes: Less dependent on the UK government Less reliance on the finance sector Improvement in quality of service generally Address climate change Protect the coastline Protect agricultural land from building We would like the government to be more forward-thinking Harmony with the living world Bolder, greener, more coherent government, with coherent aims for a socially inclusive Island life And finally ... Queen's Pier up and running again More female MHKs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
triskelion Posted February 29, 2008 Share Posted February 29, 2008 The much bigger challenge is how we would heat out homes without fossil fuels. We could put a heat exchanger in at Tynwald - with all that hot air that would sort it. Though I suppose it would still be classed as 'old fossil' fuelled. We could put Peter Karran in a tank, then give him some laminated flashcards with politicisms on - "EU Treaty," "OAP Pocket money," "Unnecessary spending," "Ministerial Bloc." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert Tatlock Posted February 29, 2008 Share Posted February 29, 2008 At the Expo, Island 21 set up a “Thinking Wall” offering visitors the opportunity to have their say on what was most concerning them. There were three sections: What we like best about the Isle of Man... Might as well have been called the 'pissing against the wall' for all the notice our eminant politicians will take of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ai_Droid Posted February 29, 2008 Share Posted February 29, 2008 So, if need the gas power plant anyway, and even arch-anti-capitalist uber-environmentalist George Monbiot would say we do, then our renewable energy could be sold at a premium to green tariff in the UK. I'd say the cable, the smaller regional stations and the energy from waste could be your backup, but I'm not an expert. I certainly think if you spent a few mil on the turbines that you'd not need to build such a large station as pulrose. The much bigger challenge is how we would heat out homes without fossil fuels. Wood CHP is probably the best bet at the minute, as the saw mill produces a sizeable amount of waste wood, and willow forests could be planted for them. I would say efficiency should come first though. If you had renewable power, you can use electricity to heat space effectively. Anyway, we should have some wind power, it's daft that we have none, if only for diversification. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebees Posted February 29, 2008 Share Posted February 29, 2008 Shock horror - I agree with the droid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
triskelion Posted February 29, 2008 Share Posted February 29, 2008 If you had renewable power, you can use electricity to heat space effectively. It really inefficient to heat water with electricity. Granted you wouldn't need to do quite so much heating with better insulated homes and pipes, but the fact remains. Furthermore it creates big problems with security of supply and grid stability, as huge strain would placed on the grid during winter evenings, when everyone comes come home, puts on the lights, tv, washing machine, oven etc, so adding water and space heating into that will create problems. At if happens to a clear windless night... It would also require the replacement of all the boilers on the Island. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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