Flash Posted March 11, 2008 Share Posted March 11, 2008 People like Costain live in the Greenpeace fantasy land of an 'energy-internet,' a concept that has largely been discredited. I don't want to repeat myself too much, but apart from maybe needing to look at anaerobic digestors and wood CHP, the Government has a good energy policy. Wind turbines still need to be backed up, meaning we would need some form of energy storage to make them a viable energy source, which adds greatly to the costs. They are only cost-viable in the UK due to Government subsidies as it is. I know Germany has lots of renewables, but that's because it has France's nuclear as back-up. ffinlo Costain held the CM to account on many things and at least he asks the questions that need asking (heaven forbid that we should ever have investigative reporting by IoM Newspapers!) Agreed AD's & CHP's should be used more widely on the Island and in fact Peter Longworth (govt energy officer) is pushing wood CHP but what is the problem of the Island having its own community wind farm be it onshore or offshore or both. The business community talks about guaranteed energy supplies & continuity but we are reliant on fossil fuel for our power (other than the interconnector) and with Peak Oil and a need for us to be independant ie not the last one in the gas pipe line, we should be building strong 'renewable' energy sources NOW, be it wind, wave, tidal, solar, PV, the lot in fact! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ai_Droid Posted March 11, 2008 Share Posted March 11, 2008 The business community talks about guaranteed energy supplies & continuity but we are reliant on fossil fuel for our power (other than the interconnector) and with Peak Oil and a need for us to be independant ie not the last one in the gas pipe line, we should be building strong 'renewable' energy sources NOW, be it wind, wave, tidal, solar, PV, the lot in fact! Agreed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert Tatlock Posted March 11, 2008 Share Posted March 11, 2008 Could anyone please explain to me why solar power will work on an island where you have to first go blue and then white before even considering getting a tan? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ai_Droid Posted March 11, 2008 Share Posted March 11, 2008 Could anyone please explain to me why solar power will work on an island where you have to first go blue and then white before even considering getting a tan? Solar photovoltaics are just one use, and not particularly suited to power production here on the island because of our climate. Solar water heating is quite effective here though, particularly with under surface pipes for pre-heating a water heating system, if you've got the land outside your gaff. For a new housing estate it may be possible to preheat a hot water supply using neighboring fields with a ground heat pipe for example, and provide a luke-warm feed into a local heating plant that ran on wood chips for a nicely carbon neutral heating system with minimal loss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert Tatlock Posted March 11, 2008 Share Posted March 11, 2008 Could anyone please explain to me why solar power will work on an island where you have to first go blue and then white before even considering getting a tan? Solar photovoltaics are just one use, and not particularly suited to power production here on the island because of our climate. Solar water heating is quite effective here though, particularly with under surface pipes for pre-heating a water heating system, if you've got the land outside your gaff. For a new housing estate it may be possible to preheat a hot water supply using neighboring fields with a ground heat pipe for example, and provide a luke-warm feed into a local heating plant that ran on wood chips for a nicely carbon neutral heating system with minimal loss. So where do we get all the wood chips from? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ai_Droid Posted March 11, 2008 Share Posted March 11, 2008 So where do we get all the wood chips from? By planting more trees or other biomass crops, which might make local farming more profitable and less reliant on subsidy. There's a tricky balance there though, particulary when agriculture is largly powered by fossil fuels, but this is just the kind of self sufficient energy cycle the Island could be attempting in my view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert Tatlock Posted March 11, 2008 Share Posted March 11, 2008 So where do we get all the wood chips from? By planting more trees or other biomass crops, which might make local farming more profitable and less reliant on subsidy. There's a tricky balance there though, particulary when agriculture is largly powered by fossil fuels, but this is just the kind of self sufficient energy cycle the Island could be attempting in my view. A large detached house (200 m^2) will need approx. 14 tonnes of wood chips or 6 tonnes of wood pellets per year. If we all live in houses that are half that size (100 m^2) or 7 tonnes of wood chips or 3 tonnes of wood pellets per year - then 30,000 island households means 210,000 tonnes of wood chips per year minimum. If one tree weighs a ton, and takes several years to grow - how many trees will we need to plant every year? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lonan3 Posted March 11, 2008 Share Posted March 11, 2008 Can we please have a separate Forum section for A1 and AT to do their arm-wrestling debating in private? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flash Posted March 11, 2008 Share Posted March 11, 2008 Could anyone please explain to me why solar power will work on an island where you have to first go blue and then white before even considering getting a tan? I've friends down Dalby whose solar powered water heating system went up to 30 degrees only in the past few days. Just becuase the sun isn't blazing doesn't mean you can't get a benefit from it with a properly situated solar water panel on your roof. DAFF ARE going down the route of planting trees for community heating systems, but it will take a few years to get up & running but I take your point about how much planting would be needed to supply the WHOLE Island with such a heating scheme - it's all about diversification and not 'all the eggs in one basket'. Insulation for domestic housing is the best for energy saving - loft, walls etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert Tatlock Posted March 11, 2008 Share Posted March 11, 2008 DAFF ARE going down the route of planting trees for community heating systems, but it will take a few years to get up & running but I take your point about how much planting would be needed to supply the WHOLE Island with such a heating scheme - it's all about diversification and not 'all the eggs in one basket'. I calculate... 210,000 tonnes per year, with each tree weighing a tonne, and taking say 10 years to grow, with 900 trees planted per hectare (where 259 hectares make a sq mile), and an island 220 sq miles or 56980 hectares in area. ...requires 4% of the island (though probably 12% or maybe more in reality to allow land to recover). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ai_Droid Posted March 11, 2008 Share Posted March 11, 2008 A large detached house (200 m^2) will need approx. 14 tonnes of wood chips or 6 tonnes of wood pellets per year. If we all live in houses that are half that size (100 m^2) or 7 tonnes of wood chips or 3 tonnes of wood pellets per year - then 30,000 island households means 210,000 tonnes of wood chips per year minimum. If one tree weighs a ton, and takes several years to grow - how many trees will we need to plant every year? 3 tonnes of wood pellets a year looks about right in a straight like for like comparrision to oil, and yes, it's a lot of wood. But you combine it with the things I mentioned, ground heat pipes, solar pre-heating, better insulation, heat transfer glass. I mentioned this specificially for new estates for this reason, the houses need to be built to be more efficient in the first place. This isn't rocket science, there's plenty of biomass heating plants in use today, they're particularly popular in schools and other large buildings in mainland europe, but then they do have the space for forestry. I have a wood burning stove in my living room for example that performs most of our space heating. You also may not be able to completely replace heating oil or gas, but you can reduce it's use while the population grows, which is better than nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
triskelion Posted March 11, 2008 Share Posted March 11, 2008 ffinlo Costain held the CM to account on many things and at least he asks the questions that need asking (heaven forbid that we should ever have investigative reporting by IoM Newspapers!) Agreed AD's & CHP's should be used more widely on the Island and in fact Peter Longworth (govt energy officer) is pushing wood CHP but what is the problem of the Island having its own community wind farm be it onshore or offshore or both. The business community talks about guaranteed energy supplies & continuity but we are reliant on fossil fuel for our power (other than the interconnector) and with Peak Oil and a need for us to be independant ie not the last one in the gas pipe line, we should be building strong 'renewable' energy sources NOW, be it wind, wave, tidal, solar, PV, the lot in fact! I'm not saying he's wrong to put these things forward, just that his solutions are not all they made out to be (not just by him). The problem with wind farms is they need a back-up supplies, which makes them much more expensive and they aren't independently viable anyway. The fact is there are no 'strong' renewable electricity sources at this time, especially in a grid the size of the Island's. PV's aren't very good, wave is still very much in the experimental stage and tidal is massively expensive and can cause other environmental impacts. It is encouraging to know that CHP is being progressed, but apart from ground-source heat pumps and solar hot-water heating panels, the only effective technologies available at the minute involve burning stuff. Droid: In fairness, Tony said it was a communal responsibility, not just a Governmental one. Also felt ffinlo was bit off by implying the fire at Fleswick and the flooding in Sulby was a result of climate change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ai_Droid Posted March 12, 2008 Share Posted March 12, 2008 More alternatives: 1,200 homes powered with cowshit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert Tatlock Posted March 12, 2008 Share Posted March 12, 2008 More alternatives: 1,200 homes powered with cowshit Nothing new about that - I've seen threads on here powered by bullshit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lonan3 Posted March 12, 2008 Share Posted March 12, 2008 More alternatives: 1,200 homes powered with cowshit Nothing new about that - I've seen threads on here powered by bullshit. And a fair number of posters, too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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