Island Joins Uk's E-borders Programme

[Frances]

Cronky, surely all that information is available to Governments via the carriers anyway?

No - only if you book direct with SP - I usually buy a combined rail/boat ticket - ok they have a name but nothing else unless I offer a phone number - no check on ID at Heysham (can't see how they could as the train only arrives about 25mins before boat departure

[Skeddan]

Frances, don't worry, I'm sure they're keeping you properly under surveillance. Recent releases of MI5 files to National Archives show who they keep files on:

The National Archives have today released the latest set of historical Security Service files, bringing the total on public display to nearly 3,700. Most of the files relate to the Second World War, though many cover the inter-war and post-war periods as well. Highlights include files on the writers George Orwell and Ernst Henri, the American folk archivist Alan Lomax, and the early Soviet defectors Leon Helfland and Grigoriy Besedovskiy.

http://www.mi5.gov.uk/output/Page515.html

 

IOMG might appear to take no interest in your labours, but no doubt the Security Services have a file on you and your archivist activities!

[localyokel]

That said, I'm not confident the CoMin would reject this no matter what it demands.

 

The UK is responsible for our defence and as the excuse for bringing this in is for 'anti terrorism' purposes realistically I'd guess that none of the Crown Dependencies will have an option but to sign up. The UK is responsible for our defence and that includes defending us in the laughably called war on terror which is creating a 'Big Brother' surveilance society. The fact that the data will likely be used for all sorts of spurious purposes including tax monitoring will just be one of those unfortunate things that always seem to stem from these anti terror initiatives.

[bluemonday]

e borders.

How wonderful.

I feel safer already.........

[triskelion]

Fuck's sake. As if some crazies in the mountains of western Pakistan are going to overthrow our entire civilisation.

[guardone]

Fuck's sake. As if some crazies in the mountains of western Pakistan are going to overthrow our entire civilisation.

 

The crazies may not have won, but we have already lost a huge amount of freedom as the police state gets more and more powers. Our civilisation has already lost much of its civility.

eg The law against protesting near UK Parliament. Id cards on internal UK flights.

[Skeddan]

From what I can gather the eBorders initiative is essentially a very expensive version of the Advanced Passenger Screening (APS) system used in New Zealand.

 

IMO the system as used in NZ is entirely legitimate and does not give cause for the kinds of concerns being expressed over eBorders. However there are some very big differences, and if anything attention should be given to these, not the system itself.

 

These differences in NZ include the very strict Privacy Act, the powers of the Privacy Commissioner, a robust Bill of Rights, a Judiciary and Supreme Court that gives primacy to protection of these rights, a Judicial Complaints Commission, and a Freedom of Information Act. How information is used is strictly controlled, and there are effective protections of civil rights and liberties.

 

By contrast, the UK fares quite poorly in these respects, and IoM is pretty abysmal. Information systems like APS are sensible and sound and inevitably will be introduced. As I see it the real issue should be having the kind of effective checks and controls on government which ensures democratic rights and freedoms are protected. With those there can be confidence that such a system will not be misused.

 

IMO the concerns this should raise are not to do with data gathering but democratic governance.

[triskelion]

Skeddan, so New Zealand screens internal travellers? Holding a Manx passport is supposed enable freedom of movement within the EU, and it isn't very free if the Government knows (or can know) where you are all the time.

[Dodger]

From what I can gather the eBorders initiative is essentially a very expensive version of the Advanced Passenger Screening (APS) system used in New Zealand.

 

IMO the system as used in NZ is entirely legitimate and does not give cause for the kinds of concerns being expressed over eBorders. However there are some very big differences, and if anything attention should be given to these, not the system itself.

 

These differences in NZ include the very strict Privacy Act, the powers of the Privacy Commissioner, a robust Bill of Rights, a Judiciary and Supreme Court that gives primacy to protection of these rights, a Judicial Complaints Commission, and a Freedom of Information Act. How information is used is strictly controlled, and there are effective protections of civil rights and liberties.

 

By contrast, the UK fares quite poorly in these respects, and IoM is pretty abysmal. Information systems like APS are sensible and sound and inevitably will be introduced. As I see it the real issue should be having the kind of effective checks and controls on government which ensures democratic rights and freedoms are protected. With those there can be confidence that such a system will not be misused.

 

IMO the concerns this should raise are not to do with data gathering but democratic governance.

 

The problem is with gathering the information before the controls are put in place! There is the other issue of cross jurisdiction transfer of data, who is responsible for it? How do we know who has it and is useing it for what purpose. It could be as innocent as junk mail, cold calls or spam emails. Worst case scenario is being planted as a main suspect for something whilst the real person gets away, you could end up in prision, deported and imprisioned, imprisioned and tortured or put on death row or lastly taken out as a threat to a government!

 

What about those directors from Netela? They were transiting through America and they got taken off the flight, arrested and charged as from their perspective these people had broken American law. What happens if you travel to Israel, Egypt, Iran, Dubai, China etc. Could we all face being arrested for something that is a crime in one of these countries? Are we getting to be in a state of home arrest?

[thesultanofsheight]

Skeddan, so New Zealand screens internal travellers? Holding a Manx passport is supposed enable freedom of movement within the EU, and it isn't very free if the Government knows (or can know) where you are all the time.

 

Quite a few people have picked up on the internal passport issue. As somebody else pointed out its a bit like going back to the old USSR where you needed an internal passport to move about.

 

Basically this system seems to have two objectives to me 1) To keep track of UK citizens who visit the IOM and 2) To keep track of Manx citizens visiting the UK. The word "tax" just keeps on running through my mind.

[Cronky]

Basically this system seems to have two objectives to me 1) To keep track of UK citizens who visit the IOM and 2) To keep track of Manx citizens visiting the UK. The word "tax" just keeps on running through my mind.

 

From the: E-Borders website:

 

The collection of information on passenger journeys will help identify those who avoid paying tax by claiming to be resident outside of the United Kingdom. It will also provide more accurate information on migration to and from the United Kingdom which will allow for better planning of public services.

 

It's for the tax.

[Skeddan]

Skeddan, so New Zealand screens internal travellers? Holding a Manx passport is supposed enable freedom of movement within the EU, and it isn't very free if the Government knows (or can know) where you are all the time.

No NZ doesn't screen internal travellers.

 

IoM is not part of the UK and by virtue of that fact, there is a border between the two - unlike travel within the UK - e.g. to Shetlands. IoM is also within the Common Travel Area. Tracking movement (and refusing boarding to those not entitled to enter) does not necessarily infringe the freedom of movement.

 

There is also a freedom of movement between NZ and Australia (Trans Tasman Travel Agreement / TTTA). That permits unimpeded movement and residence between NZ and Aus for citizens. We still go through the Aussie APS system when arriving in Aus, and go through APS when returning to NZ. That data is used by NZ Immigration, Work and Income (benfits/social security), Inland Revenue Department, and screened by NZ Customs and NZ Security Intelligence Service. The APS does not undermine this freedom of movement. Nor does it infringe on civil liberties (as far as I'm concerned). As far as I'm aware NZ Green Party and other civil rights groups do not have issue with APS or the kinds of concerns being raised here. (They are more concrened with accountability of NZSIS, robustness of privacy act, independent investigation of abuses etc.)

 

I don't deny that eBorders may well be used to track movement in and out for non-dom tax purposes. It could also be used to check on 5 year residency rule for 'Manxmen' as per Protocol 3 (Freggyragh for example might have benefited from such as system - for the reasons he noted in the 'IoM Democracy Index Rating' thread). IMO if there is an issue, it shouldn't be over data gathering systems that provide information to allow laws and rules to be enforced - it should be directed to the laws and rules themselves. (and clarity as to how this data is to be used and strict controls to limit to such uses).

[Albert Tatlock]

That said, I'm not confident the CoMin would reject this no matter what it demands.

 

The UK is responsible for our defence and as the excuse for bringing this in is for 'anti terrorism' purposes realistically I'd guess that none of the Crown Dependencies will have an option but to sign up. The UK is responsible for our defence and that includes defending us in the laughably called war on terror which is creating a 'Big Brother' surveilance society. The fact that the data will likely be used for all sorts of spurious purposes including tax monitoring will just be one of those unfortunate things that always seem to stem from these anti terror initiatives.

...or to quote a well known past 'expert' on these matters:

 

"Why of course the people don't want war. Why should some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece? Naturally the common people don't want war neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship.

 

Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country."

 

Hermann Goering (at the Nuremburg War Trials).

[Skeddan]

[The fact that the data will likely be used for all sorts of spurious purposes including tax monitoring will just be one of those unfortunate things that always seem to stem from these anti terror initiatives.

In NZ APS wasn't introduced as an anti-terror initiative, but as border control - a lot less exciting - even a little dull maybe. 'eBorders' I think could have very sound and solid justification - including tax monitoring, social security, outstanding warrants and all the other things it is used for in NZ. In fact it seems that this is the rational for it - and as Chinahand said, it is more about immigration control than about 'war on terror'.

 

Unfortunately as I'm gathering the UK seems to have fallen prey to terrible spin and hyping - including in the press and media. 'Sexing up' and getting on a sensationalist bandwagon is all the rage. In the list of the many real and worthwhile benefits of eBorders, 'anti-terrorism' is probably the lowest on the list. eBorders wouldn't have stopped the bombing of the London Underground, or the bomb in Glasgow, or have caught the terror suspects who downloaded terrorist manuals from the Internet. However 'war on terror' has 'sizzle' that helps it sell, and which journalists latch on to when writing it up as a story.

 

I don't really go for the Big Brother thing as I think others see possible conspiracy in this. But I do think this puffery and fobbing off the public with dumbed down tripe is subversive - i.e. undermines good parliamentary democracy and actually increases vulnerability to terrorism. Worryingly the puff-speak of government spin doctors, consultants and banal trashy media has become the norm. Awful as it is, I don' t see it as Big Brother so much as Big-Nanny Dumbocracy. IMO one thing's for sure - the outlook is pretty grim when the media and public put up with PMs and CMs fobbing them off with hogwash.

[thebees]

I like the Isle Of Man and it seems its 'just as well', I have just decided I will not travel outside of it. I'm sick of all this nonsense - I'm sick of being treated like a criminal every time I go on a plane or boat (and NO, it is not for my own safety). Who are these security guards who rifle through my luggage? They found an 'illegal' knife on a boy in front of me in January...so they let him on the boat with it but gave him a warning...wtf use is that?

 

Please may someone take me to the Isle Of Wight on their yacht in September? I could maybe do with popping to Dorset on the way too if possible Are yachts and personal planes privy to all this hyped up shite too?