Asking A Judge To Save The World

[Amadeus]

Injunction sought against Large Hadron Collider

 

Two men have sought an injunction in a US court to prevent the European Large Hadron Collider (LHC) from operating, alleging its new atom-smashing experiments could endanger the Earth.

 

Walter Wagner, a botanist and Luis Sancho of Spain filed the lawsuit in a Hawaii court on March 21 asking for work on the collider's particle acceleration to be halted while safety reviews take place.

 

Essentially the pair cite scientific concerns that LHC physicists, in smashing sub-atomic particles at energy levels never seen before, may create the environment for tiny black holes to occur, possibly swallowing up the Earth. They also say it is possible for a particle called a "strangelet" to be produced out of the experiment which would have the ability to convert our Earth to "strange matter."

 

However James Gillies, head of communications at the European Center for Nuclear Research (CERN), told the New York Times the LHC had been declared "safe".

 

Hmmm.....the possibility that a black hole swallows Switzerland - can't see anything wrong with that, as long as we get some pictures...

[VinnieK]

I'm pretty sure a US court doesn't have jurisdiction over EU projects. Sounds like a case of two guys trying to get their names in the papers more than anything.

[Albert Tatlock]

Maybe or maybe not necessarily with this experiment, but I think it is entirely feasible that they could one day create mini black-holes on Earth. Once created a black hole could soon ramp out of control and swallow the earth.

 

It's yet another of those wonderous questions in science - like instead of letting his wife beat him, why did Steven Hawking spend all that time on black hole theory, instead of using his immense brain to invent a ray gun to vaporise her?

[Alias]

oh noes! or http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1323/143352..._4c1f775559.jpg (both lifted from similar topic)

[VinnieK]

Once created a black hole could soon ramp out of control and swallow the earth.

 

But black holes don't get progressively more out of control and hungry for matter, the best existing theory is that they evaporate (Hawking's theory). Secondly, they'd be so small that they'd surely have little capacity to swallow even a microscopic amount of mass, never mind the entire Earth - and as scientists themselves have stated, if the LHC can create minature black holes, then the likelihood is that so do cosmic rays colliding with the Earth's atmosphere on a regular basis with energies approaching that which the LHC is designed to produce. In other words, we're probably already living with the fact of micro-black holes being created on a regular basis, but never notice since their effect is so small and lifespan so limited.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

Isn't this very like a famour science fiction story about a boy who creates a black hole in his bedroom? Forgot the author.

[Albert Tatlock]

Once created a black hole could soon ramp out of control and swallow the earth.

 

Secondly, they'd be so small that they'd surely have little capacity to swallow even a microscopic amount of mass, never mind the entire Earth

That reminds me of a guy I used to work with, who said: "It's alright, I'm standing on a rubber mat" - just before getting thrown across the room by 3000VDC.

[VinnieK]

That reminds me of a guy I used to work with, who said: "It's alright, I'm standing on a rubber mat" - just before getting thrown across the room by 3000VDC.

 

Except of course that guy didn't base his claim on scientific opinion. It's also worth mentioning that one of the specific aims of the LHC is to create micro-black holes (since so many of the articles make it sound like they might arise by accident and thus make it seem a million times more scary than it actually is).

[Skeddan]

Once created a black hole could soon ramp out of control and swallow the earth.

But black holes don't get progressively more out of control and hungry for matter, the best existing theory is that they evaporate (Hawking's theory). Secondly, they'd be so small that they'd surely have little capacity to swallow even a microscopic amount of mass, never mind the entire Earth - and as scientists themselves have stated, if the LHC can create minature black holes, then the likelihood is that so do cosmic rays colliding with the Earth's atmosphere on a regular basis with energies approaching that which the LHC is designed to produce. In other words, we're probably already living with the fact of micro-black holes being created on a regular basis, but never notice since their effect is so small and lifespan so limited.

VinnieK, I know F-all about black holes etc. and at first I was inclined to not take this story seriously. Now it seems you are saying what might happen is a matter of speculation and this is presumed on the basis of what 'best existing theory' tells us.

 

That doesn't inspire too much confidence. If you have a button and cannot be sure what will happen if you press it, but it could lead to a nuclear meltdown, destroy the planet, or unleash something that might swallow up our atmosphere in a single gulp, you'd want to have a LOT of confidence that it is safe before playing with it unecessarily. One would expect higher confidence than 'best existing theory' or is warranted by speculation that micro-black holes are already produced by cosmic rays. This is 'bet the ranch' style confidence that is needed - it sounds like this is still a long way from that.

 

Do we know beyond any shadow of a doubt or even beyond reasonable doubt that this won't destroy the planet? If not, what is the justification for taking such a risk? (e.g. will it provide us with a limitless renewable emission-free energy, or a way of zapping asteroids that might threaten to destroy the earth etc.)

[Albert Tatlock]

That reminds me of a guy I used to work with, who said: "It's alright, I'm standing on a rubber mat" - just before getting thrown across the room by 3000VDC.

 

Except of course that guy didn't base his claim on scientific opinion. It's also worth mentioning that one of the specific aims of the LHC is to create micro-black holes (since so many of the articles make it sound like they might arise by accident and thus make it seem a million times more scary than it actually is).

Not as far fetched as people might think. I changed the bag on my Henry vacuum cleaner last weekend and it suddenly started sucking up the carpet and grabbing at the settee - if I hadn't had the sense to switch it off and put my feet up, god only knows what could have happended.

[Jimcalagon]

Once created a black hole could soon ramp out of control and swallow the earth.

But black holes don't get progressively more out of control and hungry for matter, the best existing theory is that they evaporate (Hawking's theory). Secondly, they'd be so small that they'd surely have little capacity to swallow even a microscopic amount of mass, never mind the entire Earth - and as scientists themselves have stated, if the LHC can create minature black holes, then the likelihood is that so do cosmic rays colliding with the Earth's atmosphere on a regular basis with energies approaching that which the LHC is designed to produce. In other words, we're probably already living with the fact of micro-black holes being created on a regular basis, but never notice since their effect is so small and lifespan so limited.

VinnieK, I know F-all about black holes etc. and at first I was inclined to not take this story seriously. Now it seems you are saying what might happen is a matter of speculation and this is presumed on the basis of what 'best existing theory' tells us.

 

That doesn't inspire too much confidence. If you have a button and cannot be sure what will happen if you press it, but it could lead to a nuclear meltdown, destroy the planet, or unleash something that might swallow up our atmosphere in a single gulp, you'd want to have a LOT of confidence that it is safe before playing with it unecessarily. One would expect higher confidence than 'best existing theory' or is warranted by speculation that micro-black holes are already produced by cosmic rays. This is 'bet the ranch' style confidence that is needed - it sounds like this is still a long way from that.

 

Do we know beyond any shadow of a doubt or even beyond reasonable doubt that this won't destroy the planet? If not, what is the justification for taking such a risk? (e.g. will it provide us with a limitless renewable emission-free energy, or a way of zapping asteroids that might threaten to destroy the earth etc.)

 

Currently, it seems that any of these sub-microscopic black holes would evaporate almost instantaneously in a small burst of Hawking Radiation, otherwise the universe would be seething with untold billions of tiny primordial black holes dating from just after the big bang.

 

If a black hole big enough to be stable was created (which would involve masses of millions of tons somehow being compressed into something the size of a pinhead - not likely to happen with today's technology), the black hole would drop to the centre of the earth, orbiting under the crust as it gradually 'eating' the planet up from the inside.

[P.K.]

If you want to know what a black hole is like just visit the offshore call centre of any major bank you care to mention...

[Alias]

The LHC only simulates energies and collisions that happen regularly nearby by the Earth anyhow; the point isn't just about how energetic a collision they can make, it's that it's possible to track and monitor all conditions and events.

[VinnieK]

what is the justification for taking such a risk? (e.g. will it provide us with a limitless renewable emission-free energy, or a way of zapping asteroids that might threaten to destroy the earth etc.)

 

It's difficult to talk about potential applications at this level. Work being done with the LHC and at CERN in general is what some call "base" science: very theoretical, and designed to probe fundamental physical properties and test hypotheses (i.e. the search for new types of particle or looking for quantum mechanical effects predicted by various models or theories). When dealing with such material it's very difficult, if not impossible, to speak about practical applications. Indeed, that's not the point or focus of such experiments - what they do is improve our understanding of the universe that can then provide the foundation for future discoveries and work that does yield practical applications and results.

 

I know this sounds a bit weak and vague, but this is the way (indeed it is the only possible way) modern science operates, and nearly all significant advancements in science are related to a preceding "breakthrough" moment in theoretical physics and so called base science. For examples, think of Einstein's theories of relativity and our subsequent understanding of fission and fusion, or Planck's hypothesis regarding the quantization of energy (leading directly to the field of quantum physics). Work being done with the LHC isn't quite as significant as the examples given, since it is basically a gigantic high energy testing bed for existing theories, but it does offer the opportunity to refine and support currently hypothetical and important models with physical evidence.

 

My own hope is that the experiments summon Mighty Thor, who will tell us string theory is toss - allowing a lot of physicists to act on their long cherished dreams of chasing string theorists around, pelting them with rotten fruit and hammers.

[Skeddan]

I fully accept that 'base science' likes this makes sense - and building theoretical foundations does certainly advance knowledge and lead to new insights, discoveries and benefits (even if only non-stick frying pans). The question was really only if there is a risk - which does not seem to be the case here. If there was or could be a genuine risk, like a 1/billion chance of unleashing a cosmic pacman, then this would have to be outweighed by significant benefits and tangible worthwhile deliverables, otherwise IMO it would be hard to justify.

 

Summoning Mighty Thor would be no bad thing. Summoning a Bhagavad Gita Destroyer of Worlds wouldn't be.