Immigration 'small Benefit' To Uk

[Albert Tatlock]

I can't see what the fuss is about. People move from country to country, that's been happening for a long time.

Of course it has, but 'the fuss' is about so many in such a short time, and the resultant impacts on culture and the strain on infrastructure.

[Slim]

Of course it has, but 'the fuss' is about so many in such a short time, and the resultant impacts on culture and the strain on infrastructure.

 

Got a local example of this?

[pongo]

the resultant impacts on culture

 

What do you mean when you talk about culture? You talk about cultures changing as if that was somehow a pejorative thing. Where as, surely, the ever changing nature of cultures and languages, according to new influences, would be a sign that these cultures are still alive.

 

Cultures are constantly evolving and changing and influencing and absorbing each other. That partly defines them.

[Slim]

Cultures are constantly evolving and changing and influencing and absorbing each other. That partly defines them.

 

 

Agree, like that fine ole manx name 'Juan'

[Typhoid]

The large scale employer looking at greater profitability or the way to cut costs has several options open, the easiest and laziest being to cut wages. If the workers are well-organised they can resist this so there are two options open to the major capitalist. Either take the factories to where the cheap labour is or take the cheap labour to where the factories are. The first option entails great pollution, as a rule -- not that they ever care about that -- and in some cases they have to go into areas of political instability. It is cheaper to move the cheap labour.

 

Having thus encouraged immigration, wearing the financial hat as it were, the capitalist in the capacity of a right-wing politician, dons the political hat and denounces immigration. This has the advantage of setting worker against worker, fuelled by religious and/or racial antipathies which can persist for generations, and have the added bonus of inducing the worker to support the right wing electorally. It does the capitalist no harm to have a work force hated by those who surround them, or in fear of deportation if they step out of line. Nor does it harm the capitalist, in a political context, to have issues such as immigration replace the basic issue of the wage and monetary system. It only becomes harmful from that point of view when a fascist force such as Hitler's gains such armed might that it can ignore the wishes of the capitalists which gave them that power and strives for its own superiority.

 

- Albert Meltzer.

 

 

Instead of worrying and arguing about the (relatively negligible) "drain" on government finances caused by refugees, asylumn seekers, foreign (and indeed native) social welfare fraudsters, etc. maybe we should concentrate on making the super-rich pay their taxes?

 

 

It is estimated here that £25 billion annually is lost from tax avoidance. This is made up of £13 billion p.a. from tax avoidance by individuals and £12 billion p.a. from the 700 largest corporations.

 

[...]

 

It is estimated that an additional £8 billion p.a. is lost to public funds from tax planning by the wealthiest members of the UK community, i.e. those earning over £100,000 p.a.

 

[..]

 

This report bases its findings on new and original research of the fifty largest companies in the UK and shows that:

 

The fifty largest companies almost always pay 5% less tax on average than they declare in their accounts.

 

The average tax rate paid by these companies fell by more than 0.5% a year over a seven-year period to 2006, even though the UK tax rate for these companies was constant throughout that time - as a result, the de facto corporation tax rate for UK companies in 2006 was 22.5% when the actual rate agreed by Parliament was 30%.

 

This means that when the new higher corporation tax rate for smaller companies reaches 22% by 2011 (as announced in the 2007 Budget), small companies are likely to be paying a higher proportion of tax on their profits than the fifty largest companies on current trends.

 

If this de facto tax rate was the official tax rate it would place the UK 16th in a table of corporation tax rates for the EU 25 with France the highest and Malta the lowest - it would also mean that the UK had the lowest corporation tax rate of the Western European economies with the exception of Ireland.

 

By the end of 2006, the cumulative tax savings recorded in the accounts of the fifty largest companies was £47 billion; this actually exceeded the total tax paid by all companies in 2006 by some £2 billion.

[Typhoid]

A question: do 'core' states such as the UK, for example, have any responsibility for the welfare of immigrants from 'peripheral' states? Do they have any responsibility for refugees from countries such as Afghanistan or Iraq?

[manxy]

I'm led to understand that the increase of new born babies by immigrants has increased.

Can this be verified anywhere?

If there is an increasing level of immigrants having a baby boom, what is their reasoning for this? ie, is it so that their child will be classed as Manx and thereby ensuring that they can remain on the Island?

 

On a slightly different note, I mentioned in another thread somewhere that I don't mind workers, but I don't like benefit scroungers who are capable of working. I only wish that we could swap some of the lazy bone idle individuals for those who are keen to work.

[Typhoid]

I'm led to understand that the increase of new born babies by immigrants has increased.

Can this be verified anywhere?

If there is an increasing level of immigrants having a baby boom, what is their reasoning for this? ie, is it so that their child will be classed as Manx and thereby ensuring that they can remain on the Island?

 

On a slightly different note, I mentioned in another thread somewhere that I don't mind workers, but I don't like benefit scroungers who are capable of working. I only wish that we could swap some of the lazy bone idle individuals for those who are keen to work.

 

Out of interest...

 

Do you mind workers who are having babies, or would you prefer that immigrants only be permitted entry on the basis that they work a sh*tty (yet necessary) job for a relatively sh*tty wage, get looked down upon by people of pure Manx lineage, and never actually put down any roots or have any rights.

 

Would you swap Manx individuals of the bone idle persuasion for non-Manx workers?

[pongo]

I'm led to understand that the increase of new born babies by immigrants has increased.

Can this be verified anywhere?

 

It sounds like the sort of malicious tittle tattle which might be spread by not very nice people.

 

+ is anyone actually compiling this sort of statistical information from the available data ? Where are the tables ?

 

I vote that the story is bogus.

[triskelion]

I'm led to understand that the increase of new born babies by immigrants has increased.

Can this be verified anywhere?

I doubt it, because what you said doesn't really make sense. In the context of the Isle of Man, given the number of non-Manx-born people living here, obviously a large and increasing proportion of new-borns are going to have non-Manx parentage. Not sure how this is a negative thing.

 

I remember reading the manifesto of Geoff Cannel from the last election, in which he said something along the lines of "It is all very well having them come over to do the jobs none of us want to do, but will their children want to do these jobs as well? I think not."

 

I thought at the time: "Why the fuck should they? As if having a hereditary underclass would somehow be acceptable."

[Skeddan]

As if having a hereditary underclass would somehow be acceptable

This reminds me of an item about immigration to the UK from Bangladesh - their CM arguing that immigration from there should be continued so can continue to provide workers to the UK to make curries - a kind of underclass. Is any underclass really acceptable?- e.g. Filipinos in Saudi Arabia.

 

A lot of the issue of immigration also appears to be to do with low paid jobs. Why are local people not wanting these? Is it because of the nature of the work or because the pay is minimal for the labour involved? (But acceptable to someone from a poor and disadvantaged country who is used to low wages?).

 

To throw cat among pigeons I'd suggest that part of the issue is creating an underclass by having minimal wage jobs with too low a minimum wage. Locals wont do this, so have to look overseas to recruit to this underclass. Also I'm inclined to the view that raising minimum wage has strong +ve effect on GDP and is good for business and the economy. There's a lot of discussion of immigration and low paid jobs - and I think these two questions could go hand in hand.

[manxy]

I'm led to understand that the increase of new born babies by immigrants has increased.

Can this be verified anywhere?

 

It sounds like the sort of malicious tittle tattle which might be spread by not very nice people.

 

+ is anyone actually compiling this sort of statistical information from the available data ? Where are the tables ?

 

I vote that the story is bogus.

Hi Pongo IMO, I would say that the statement above can only be malicious if the answer is known to be false and was stated with wrongful intentions. I cannot verify that without the info needed to either prove or disprove this (bogus or not bogus) and like you, would like to know one way or another.

 

Would you swap Manx individuals of the bone idle persuasion for non-Manx workers?

If only I could, but that would probably clear out half of the MLC and MHK's

[manxy]

As if having a hereditary underclass would somehow be acceptable

This reminds me of an item about immigration to the UK from Bangladesh - their CM arguing that immigration from there should be continued so can continue to provide workers to the UK to make curries - a kind of underclass. Is any underclass really acceptable?- e.g. Filipinos in Saudi Arabia.

 

A lot of the issue of immigration also appears to be to do with low paid jobs. Why are local people not wanting these? Is it because of the nature of the work or because the pay is minimal for the labour involved? (But acceptable to someone from a poor and disadvantaged country who is used to low wages?).

 

To throw cat among pigeons I'd suggest that part of the issue is creating an underclass by having minimal wage jobs with too low a minimum wage. Locals wont do this, so have to look overseas to recruit to this underclass. Also I'm inclined to the view that raising minimum wage has strong +ve effect on GDP and is good for business and the economy. There's a lot of discussion of immigration and low paid jobs - and I think these two questions could go hand in hand.

I agree with what your saying Skeddan and IMO, any boss who employees people for less than the minimum rate should be heavily penalized

[La_Dolce_Vita]

I'm led to understand that the increase of new born babies by immigrants has increased.

Can this be verified anywhere?

If there is an increasing level of immigrants having a baby boom, what is their reasoning for this? ie, is it so that their child will be classed as Manx and thereby ensuring that they can remain on the Island?

 

On a slightly different note, I mentioned in another thread somewhere that I don't mind workers, but I don't like benefit scroungers who are capable of working. I only wish that we could swap some of the lazy bone idle individuals for those who are keen to work.

 

I think the problem is that there are so many disincentives to work. I think it is a problem that there are lots of people who are supported by the work by others, but in a way I can't blame those decide not to work, in some ways it is a wise choice to make.

Those who are on the dole are probably only going to get lowest paid, most uninteresting, jobs that have little prospects for a career. If they decide to enter the workforce they are essentially agreeing to become a slave for so many hours a day, bored out of their wits and working for crap money. Something needs to be done about making sure that work is not about that or people are just not going to bother with it.

[Freggyragh]

I blame it all on the Thatcherism/Socialism dialectic that sprung from the nasty British class system - it encouraged the idea that money is everything, and creativity, loyalty, humility, humanity, expression, community and manners mean nothing as long as the till keeps ringing / paycheques or benefits keep coming. We can all slap ourselves on the back and give ourselves awards like 'investors in people' but the truth is we have to import most of our healthcare staff because we prefer spending millions training MBAs rather than training nurses. It is also sad that some local people don't understand the notion that doing a job well should be rewarding in itself, but I think it is great that our immigration is now so diverse - we should be doing our best to make people brave enough to give it a go here feel a respected and welcome part of our community.