We Need This Bloke For The New Prison

[Digga]

America's Hardest Prisons new series starts May 10th

 

I like the fact that the prison dog food bill costs more than the inmates and think he treats prisonners how they should be treated , dont anyone harp on about human rites think of the victims,

[Lonan3]

human rites

I think that may be going a bit too far in terms of punishment....

[Albert Tatlock]

Whatever people say, the facts (and for this argument I merge the UK and Isle of Man as I consider the society's similar, or likely to become similar), are these:

• We don't have capital punishment
  
• Most criminals, even the average murderer, does eventually get released back into society, and only the most serious of offenders actually spend their life in prison (representing a very tiny percentage of the overall total)
  
• 67 percent of prisoners re-offend within two years
  
• Drugs, violence and bullying are rife in prison
  
• Nearly two-thirds of sentenced male prisoners and two-fifths of female sentenced prisoners admit to hazardous drinking. Of these, about half have a severe alcohol dependency. and it is common for prisoners who have alcohol problems to also have drug problems.
  
• 15% of male sentenced prisoners and 30% of women are convicted of drug offences
  
• 70 percent of prisoners suffer from a mental disorder, yet during their time in prison they are denied the services of the NHS
  
• 65 percent of all adult prisoners have a reading age of less than eight
  
• Over 50 percent of all women prisoners have suffered sexual or physical abuse or both, most often from their families
  
• At any time 150,000 children have a parent in prison
  
• Prisons are overcrowded
  
• 20% convicted are from ethnic minorites, even though they represent only 5% of the general population
  
• It costs around £30K a year to keep someone in prison
  
• The suicide rate for men in prison is 5 times greater than that for men in the community. Boys aged 15-17 are 18 times more likely to kill themselves in prison.
  

The 'Elephant in the room' folks is that our prisons are not working, and politicians simply choose to talk tough to the 'lynch mob brigade' and expand them, rather than deal with the underlying issues. We are still following the Victorian approach to the prison service which was punitative rather than rehabilitating - even though these days we understand that most prisoners are themselves victims of some sort. By not dealing with the underlying issues, all we do is allow the creation of more victims of crime, via what is proven to be a revolving door prison system. The statistics back up that all anyone in the 'hang em high brigade', the 'lock em up and throw away the key, and treat them like sh1t brigade' is currently achieving is creating yet more victims of crime, by refusing to face up to the issues that need to be dealt with.

 

Of course some people will never change, no matter what you do for them. But some of the solutions are obvious (IMO):

• There is sod all to do for young people, so little wonder so many experiment with drink and drugs, left only to be mentored by their peers. Why not build modern and well equipped youth centres, equipped with what kids are interested in these days. We have existing alcohol laws, so let's start enforcing them e.g. anyone caught selling to underage drinkers (shop or pub) loses his licence - full stop, anyone caught buying it for them faces an extremely large fine £5K.
  
• On the island, instead of tackling drugs at the ports and sorting office where most of them come in, we instead spend millions of pounds on investigating them and imprisoning people after they've arrived. In over 200 trips I've been searched once - only because I had a van and they were checking the fuel I was using). Lets get far more police (and sniffer dogs) involved at the ports (and other places of drug entry) and make more effort to catch those bringing them in.
  
• Lets realise that more than half of prisoners have a reading age of less than 8, and need educating, that half of women prisoners have suffered abuse and need counselling, and that the 67% reoffending rate will only be reduced by rehabilitating and providing training for prisoners etc. as well as a job and a decent environment to go to - rather than simply dumping them back on the streets, coming out at best as they went into prison, and at worst drug addicted, criminally educated and seeking revenge on society. Let's realise that it costs more to keep them in prison than it does to change many of them.
  
• Lets provide the psychiatric help 70% of them need and don't get so they can be assessed properly in prison and treated or dealt with accordingly.
  
• Let's work out why the criminal underclass is expanding e.g. by looking into the provision of benefits etc. and why people have 7 kids to different fathers and don't have the education, parenting skills to bring them up etc. - remembering all criminals have one thing in common, in that they have all been through our education system to some degree.
  

The role of the Criminal Justice System in our society is to protect the public by preventing crime. The prisons' role in this system is to prevent the next crime, or the next victim, by helping prisoners to lead useful and law-abiding lives both in their time in prison and afterwards. The system has clearly failed, and things are getting far worse daily - and with the current political approach, I'll give it less than ten years before even our spanking new prison becomes overcrowded - unless people start changing their approach.

[Skeddan]

• 67 percent of prisoners re-offend within two years
  
• 70 percent of prisoners suffer from a mental disorder, yet during their time in prison they are denied the services of the NHS
  

This is core point. Same true in NZ - with higher proportion of repeat offenders having mental disorders. (Also very high incidence of cognitive impairments from head / traumatic brain injuries). I'd suggest the true figure is slightly higher - if it is 70% have been diagnosed with a mental disorder, it is probably more like 80% or more who actually suffer from a mental disorder.

 

the 'lynch mob brigade' and expand them, rather than deal with the underlying issues. ..By not dealing with the underlying issues, all we do is allow the creation of more victims of crime, ..some of the solutions are obvious

...

[*]Lets provide the psychiatric help 70% of them need and don't get so they can be assessed properly in prison and treated or dealt with accordingly.

..

AT - the really big difference would be made by identifying and treating before they go to prison. Even before they are brought to trial - and before offending. Undiagnosed and untreated mental health problems are rife in the UK. Much can be done from schools onward. Have a sound mental health strategy and there will be a huge effect. It's also classic Pareto stuff. Plain common sense if you ask me. Economically I think it's a no-brainer.

 

Politically it is not so attractive - however sound. A bit like putting VAT on childrens' clothes - that might make them cheaper and be less disadvantaging for the poor, but public wouldn't believe it or buy into it - all too wishy washy and woolly - they know what's what and its common sense and all that. You need to start with better public awareness of mental health - and I get the impression IoM is very behind in that.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

That prison is nothing but a concentration camp - and anyone supporting it is nothing but a fascist, non-thinking, misguided thug who has no part in, and no understanding of, a civilised democracy IMO.

Custodial sentences can/should/may serve a number of purposes, e.g:

• Deterrence
  
• Reforming/rehabilitation of offender
  
• Retribution by society against offender who breaks the laws
  
• Showing values and importance attached to laws - including seriousness of various offences.
  
• Providing justice to victims - i.e. not leaving them feeling the harm they suffer is of no importance.
  
• Providing wrongdoer with a punishment that they and others feel 'pays the debt' (without which residual resentment etc.)
  

As I said, I think this particular institution is going too far, but I'd think for some convicted offenders, a more bare-bones system without frills and comforts - but without brutality or inhumanity - might be more effective and justified. It also drives home that the offender has put himself outside civilised society and as a result is not entitled to the rights and liberties that go with that - other than just basic human rights.

 

Yet from perspective I want to know what it meant by "put[ting] himself outside civilised society". Was the offender ever in this so-called civilised society? And if so, what place did they have in this society. In the case of theft, why do people steal? We all understand that it is wrong to thieve from others, and we all know what we could get away with many thefts, but the vast majority do not theive. And why is the people who are the poorest and most disadvantaged are the ones who thieve. I do believe it is because they have no morals. Imprisonement just doesn't strike me as being an effective deterrent, it simply reinforces the moral and legal situation in respect of property in society. And I wonder whether the values that are reinforced are those that sanction the importance of property ownership, which I do not think is necessarily a good thing.

I am saying that theft is okay, it certainly isn't in my opinion when poor or working class people steal from other poor or working class people (I wouldn't care much if the theft from those with too much property or money). But some other options must be better than banging people up.

 

Low security prisons, with comfy rooms on par with uni accommodation, cable tv, internet, libraries, gyms, and so forth may be very progressive, but they might not be very effective. In some cases shorter sentences in bare-bones prison might achieve more in reintegrating the offender into society etc.. That IMO is better than making someone a long term member of the 'prison population'. If it did work, would you be against that and consider it to be fascist, uncivilised, misguided etc.?

 

I think this is the problem though because the prison system is supposed to do so much at the same time, it is having to balance so many factors such as deterrence, social retribution, reform, etc. Imprisonment is the most severe form of punishment in the UK, short sentences for serious crimes would cause an outcry from the public even if the conditions in the prison were spartan. It would be difficult to bring the conditions in the prisons to such a low level that shorter sentences would be seen to be acceptable. The punishment would then more about the difficulty of life in a prison cell rather than the punishment of being removed from society. It would also be an attempt to make their lives in prison shitter than they were in society. But I see that as a rather brutal form of retribution and deterrence.

 

I am interested in this statistic of criminals having mental disorders. I am curious as to whether the mental disorder has originated from their time in prison or not, that is whether their detachment from society has led them to become more anti-social. I see the freedom to move from one place to the other and interact with others in society as not a basic right but a fundamental need of human beings. So I wonder what impact imprisonment has on people.

Furthermore, I think it is quite understandable that the working classes in society are the most prone to depressive and anxiety conditions and from what I gather the majority of criminals are in that group.

[Amadeus]

Look up Scott Norberg, Brian Crenshaw and Richard Post.

 

Somehow i think the $8.25 million out of court settlement with Norberg's parents suggests that perhaps he isn't saving as much money as he makes out.

 

The man is a publicity whore (for example requesting that Paris Hilton be transferred to his jail) and should never have been allowed such a position of power.

 

P.S. about 60% of prisoners in Arpaio's jail are awaiting trial.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Arpaio

 

The guy appears like a grade A loon that should not have any place in a civilised society. As Albert said, it's still "Innocent until proven guilty" and not the other way round.

[Ean]

America's Hardest Prisons new series starts May 10th

 

I like the fact that the prison dog food bill costs more than the inmates and think he treats prisonners how they should be treated , dont anyone harp on about human rites think of the victims,

 

Have you even read about any of those people I mentioned?

 

You'll witness that some of the prisoners held don't have to have a victim. Read about Richard Post, he was a paraplegic who got a little drunk and mouthed off at someone who turned out to own the bar he was drinking in. The police picked him up, discovered a small amount of pot on him, took him to the cells and refused him medical equipment he needed because of his condition. When he started to insist that he have that equipment they strapped him into a restraint chair and the pressure exerted on him being in this chair broke his neck. The man is now a quadriplegic because of the medieval detainment instruments that Arpaio insists are necessary.

 

Is paralysis in all 4 limbs the correct "price" for a bit of lip to a bar owner? He was hardly a victim now was he?

 

Still think human "rites" aren't anything we should be worried about?

[integer]

On the other hand, being in a wheelchair doesn't permit someone to be drunk and disorderly or to possess illegal substances and cause disturbances in public places....

[Ean]

Well when you put it like that....

[Skeddan]

On the other hand, being in a wheelchair doesn't permit someone to be drunk and disorderly or to possess illegal substances and cause disturbances in public places....

Yes, and being a police officer doesn't permit someone to use excessive force, torture and put a person in a wheelchair (yet).

[jimbms]

America's Hardest Prisons new series starts May 10th

 

I like the fact that the prison dog food bill costs more than the inmates and think he treats prisonners how they should be treated , dont anyone harp on about human rites think of the victims,

I'm with you all the way there.

[Skeddan]

America's Hardest Prisons new series starts May 10th

 

I like the fact that the prison dog food bill costs more than the inmates and think he treats prisonners how they should be treated , dont anyone harp on about human rites think of the victims,

I'm with you all the way there.

Thinking of the victims... It seems to me that sadism and cruelty in the name of victims of crime is exploiting these victims and even attempting to make them accessories to such mistreatment of people. Even if a victim of a crime was so bitter and twisted as to want to have the tried and convicted offender subjected to torture and being roasted alive, it wouldn't make it right or morally acceptable.

[jimbms]

America's Hardest Prisons new series starts May 10th

 

I like the fact that the prison dog food bill costs more than the inmates and think he treats prisonners how they should be treated , dont anyone harp on about human rites think of the victims,

I'm with you all the way there.

Thinking of the victims... It seems to me that sadism and cruelty in the name of victims of crime is exploiting these victims and even attempting to make them accessories to such mistreatment of people. Even if a victim of a crime was so bitter and twisted as to want to have the tried and convicted offender subjected to torture and being roasted alive, it wouldn't make it right or morally acceptable.

Yes it would, let the punishment fit the crime, Hands off for thieves, castration for sex offenders, send junkies away for drug testing experiments, violent offenders in the stocks and drink drivers banned for life from driving and pubs.

[Lonan3]

You need to start with better public awareness of mental health - and I get the impression IoM is very behind in that.

Sadly, that is very true and it begins at the very earliest stages in infant/primary schools where the specialist help that kids 'with problems' need simply is not available here.

Far too often, those problems are either ignored or become the cause of punishments. By the time these kids reach secondary it is, in all but a few cases, too late to do very much to help them because there is already considerable resentment of the 'system' that has let them down so badly. These are frequently the 'criminals,' the ones who end up being disenfranchised by society and turn to the friendly guy who has a 'substance' that will help them.

The head of the National Union of Teachers recently gave a great deal of praise for the Manx educational system - even going so far as to recommend that Gordon Brown should visit to see how it should be done.

Unfortunately, she was only allowed to see the positive points. Beneath the surface there are serious deficiencies in the local schools systems - problems that begin with early education and which ultimately lead to the problems that we all end up paying the price for.

[Skeddan]

Yes it would, let the punishment fit the crime, Hands off for thieves, castration for sex offenders, send junkies away for drug testing experiments, violent offenders in the stocks and drink drivers banned for life form driving and pubs.

You've given a few examples of how you see 'punishment fit the crime' - what is the general principle you would apply to determine what punishment should fit the crime in other cases? Cut out the tongues of libellers (and also the hands if there is defamation). Put out the eyes of people caught without a TV licence? (and cut off their ears also?).

 

Why not cut off the hands of drink drivers - after all they jeopardised the lives of others, and this would be a more effective way of stopping them drinking and driving again - they could still drink at home and drive illegally if just banned as you suggest.

 

'Let the punishment fit the crime' maybe sounds like it might be a good rule, but it is pretty open-ended. Does this mean cutting off body parts to stop the person doing it again, or the offending body part, or what? What exactly is the rule which can be used to decide the punishment in any given case?