We Need This Bloke For The New Prison

[Skeddan]

You need to start with better public awareness of mental health - and I get the impression IoM is very behind in that.

Sadly, that is very true and it begins at the very earliest stages in infant/primary schools where the specialist help that kids 'with problems' need simply is not available here.

Far too often, those problems are either ignored or become the cause of punishments. By the time these kids reach secondary it is, in all but a few cases, too late to do very much to help them because there is already considerable resentment of the 'system' that has let them down so badly. These are frequently the 'criminals,' the ones who end up being disenfranchised by society and turn to the friendly guy who has a 'substance' that will help them.

Lonan3 - you put this extremely well.

 

I would also add that in many cases these 'problems' are in actuality natural psychological differences, with atypical abilities and difficulties. The 'one size fits all' system doesn't cater to such minorities, and only meets the needs of the 'average' 'normal' 80%.

 

In many cases this is creating a problem in the way you describe, whereas with relatively low-cost appropriate accommodations, schooling, and other social inclusion, they could be valuable members of society rather than a burden. Instead they are round pegs hammered into square holes - and that way you get splinters.

 

Despite that, there are cases of kids who despite these 'failures' at school (the failure being generally that of the school system) then go on to achieve success outside the run-of-the-mill type fields. Weta Workshop (computer graphics for feature films) is actively encouraging dyslexics to join - who often are highly visual and creative, though not well suited to be bank tellers, accountants, and civil servants.

 

One guy with dyslexia who failed dismally at school went on to become a top sound engineer with the Chemical Brothers. Guy Ritchie - the successful film director, so on and so on. For all these 'succeeded despite the system' cases, there are also many others who were not so fortunate, and end up as you describe.

 

Apart from human rights issues, it's a dumb system where 'assets' are turned into liabilities, and the price to pay is huge social and economic cost.

[VinnieK]

Last night I saw a documentary on the UK's last executioner. Although I disagree with capital punishment, I was struck with the dignity and impassive professionalism with which it was administered - a far cry from the kind of sociopathic fantasies and gleeful bloodlust masquerading as a concern for "justice" that characterises Arpaio and some of the discussion here.

 

Given the choice, I'd prefer a society that regards death and mutilation with healthy caution, regardless of perceived inadequacies in the system, over one that panders to the childlike barbarism that regards the infliction of pain with a sweaty palmed eagerness and total lack of reflection.

[P.K.]

Dear me, talk about old news.

 

Having posted that in May 2005 coincidentally the following September the Radio 4 Today program invited Arpaio over for a week. I found Sherriff Joe a very intriguing character and being a big R4 fan (I think it's the best broadcasting on the planet) I followed the week with great interest. I wasn't quite sure what to expect and to be honest for me he came across really well.

 

So you can ignore all the bollocks posted above in ignorance and make your own mind up on the real thing. Listen to Sherriff Joe on his R4 UK visit here. It's a few years old but he's quite a character which makes it still very interesting. Enjoy.

[VinnieK]

Well, as long as he came across well on a radio show, we can ignore the deaths, entrapment, destruction of key evidence, raids on media establishments, and the ruling of the Irish courts not to extradite a man (not even a suspected child molestor) in their custody to the "chilling sadism" of Arpaio, as well as the $13.7 million in settlements that have been dished out in cases against him and the further $50 million in further claims.

[Skeddan]

Well, as long as he came across well on a radio show, we can ignore the deaths, entrapment, destruction of key evidence, raids on media establishments, and the ruling of the Irish courts not to extradite a man (not even a suspected child molestor) in their custody to the "chilling sadism" of Arpaio, as well as the $13.7 million in settlements that have been dished out in cases against him and the further $50 million in further claims.

David Drew Howe could use a man like that as 'Sheriff of Mann' - if you want to grab a crown you always needs a good henchman, and this guy seems to have the essential qualifications - sounds like Richard III material.

 

(David Howe also came across well on a radio show come to think of it - he also nearly had me convinced he was right).

 

Who knows, maybe mutilations and disembowelments in the town square coming soon.

[Sebrof]

America's Hardest Prisons new series starts May 10th

 

I like the fact that the prison dog food bill costs more than the inmates and think he treats prisonners how they should be treated , dont anyone harp on about human rites think of the victims,

 

Isn't it interesting that the people who support this psychopath are themselves in need of some remedial teaching.

 

Sebrof

[P.K.]

Well, as long as he came across well on a radio show, we can ignore the deaths, entrapment, destruction of key evidence, raids on media establishments, and the ruling of the Irish courts not to extradite a man (not even a suspected child molestor) in their custody to the "chilling sadism" of Arpaio, as well as the $13.7 million in settlements that have been dished out in cases against him and the further $50 million in further claims.

I have Vinnie on "ignore" because I can't get to the end of one of his posts without my will to live just ebbing away. So please folks when he has a go at my posts stop goading me with PM's!

 

Vinnie, if you look back you'll see I posted "to be honest for me he came across really well". So it isn't that he came across well on radio i.e. "presentation" to EVERYONE. For me and me only (i.e. I obviously can't speak for anyone else who was listening) the "content" was better than I was expecting. This is simply because from his press I thought he was a KKK, redneck, "hang 'em high" type. In the event he's obviously more intelligent than that - dear me Vinnie, it's like explaining things to a kindergarten! Please tell me that you've grasped the concept that when I post that something came across really well "for me" you understand that it doesn't mean it's true for everyone else - especially you it would seem....

 

Now I know you're always desperate to diss me at every turn and give Google a real hammering to do so. But a lot of your your post is pure wiki, that an Irish court refused to extradite a suspected child molester because "he may have been imprisoned for up to three years without trial and the fact that he would have to wear pink underwear in prison." It's like the Daily Mail. He "may" have been imprisoned for 3 years, or equally he "may not" have. And a suspected child molester having to wear pink underwear? Well, heaven forbid! It's pathetic, but then they refused to extradite Brendan Smyth as well (you're a google expert Vinnie - look it up!) proving that Ireland is more Catholic than the Pope! As to the "$13.7 million in settlements" in your haste to diss me you're guilty of taking "wiki" as gospel (prat). It's actually $14.7m but that figure is over the whole county and all of of it's divisions for the 5 years since Joe took over in 1992. I wonder what the figure is since 1997?

 

Which leads on to the most telling point. Sorry Vinnie but since 1992 by popular vote by those who pay his wages Sherriff Joe is still in charge at Maricopa.

 

Personally I would like to see genuine re-offend rates etc etc from those who have been incarcerated by Sherriff Joe. Unlike Vinnie I have little regard for anecdotal bollocks from sites such as wiki. I'm sure Joe has a point that punishment is a part of rehabilitation. But I would like to see facts and figures before making any judgements.

[VinnieK]

I have Vinnie on "ignore" because I can't get to the end of one of his posts without my will to live just ebbing away.

 

Yay! Pansy.

 

Amongst all the familiar P.K. brand stupidity (somewhere between that of a retarded monkey sat at a typewriter and a lump of shit being dangled over a keyboard) this is quite an interesting point:

 

Which leads on to the most telling point. Sorry Vinnie but since 1992 by popular vote by those who pay his wages Sherriff Joe is still in charge at Maricopa.

 

This to me demonstrates the folly of electing law enforcement officials by popular vote. Criticisms of populist politicians and the damage they can do to politics abound, and yet many continue to be elected. These criticisms are just as applicable (if not more so) to the role of Sherrif, and indeed it can be called into question whether it's right that politics be allowed to influence the execution of the law at such a fundamental level at all. It's all too easy, and I believe Arpaio is an example of this, for an individual to capitalise and exploit citizens' fears by taking the hardline approach, regardless of whether or not its the best course of action. Provided he doesn't victimise or antagonise the wrong kind of person, he can rest safe in the knowledge that the public will forgive his excesses and more questionable activities as being small cost to have someone who appears to be taking action.

[cheeky boy]

People who deserve to be in prison deserve to have a shit time, but how many people actually deserve to be in prison ?

 

Most of the inmates over here are in for drugs offences, yet most of the people who take drugs in the IOM are tax paying law abiding citizens who have chosen to liven up their social life with something other than the dangerous and legal narcotics approved for sale by the government and sold with a hefty tax

 

The problem druggies, those committing other crimes and clogging up the social services are no more or less of a problem than problem alcoholics. yet alcoholics can claim disability allowance for their "Illness"

 

If we were to stop jailing people for things that do not actually cause society a problem and concentrate resources on things that do we may make some progress

 

Ask anybody in the police or care service who the future troublemakers are and they will be able to tell you very accurately which kids they will be.

If these children were singled out for an intensive parenting & education program early on we could save a fortune in the long term.

 

As for those who persistantly fail to respond, I'm with the Yank

[Amadeus]

To be honest, this guy is a softy lightweight compared to her:

 

Shoot the bastards... and shoot to kill: South African minister tells police to show criminals no mercy

 

Police in South Africa were ordered yesterday to deal with criminals by "killing the bastards".

 

Susan Shabangu, the country's security minister, told officers not to worry about regulations, negotiations or warning shots.

 

Instead, police should use the guns given to them and go for the kill...

 

....Aiming her words at police chiefs, she said of criminals: "You must kill the bastards if they threaten you or the community. You must not worry about the regulations - that is my responsibility. Your responsibility is to serve and protect.

 

"I want no warning shots. You have one shot and it must be a kill shot.

 

"Criminals are hell-bent on undermining the law and they must now be dealt with. End of story. There are to be no negotiations with criminals."

[P.K.]

"I want no warning shots. You have one shot and it must be a kill shot."

There is a serious point here as well. We were issued a card with "Rules of Engagement". So the question we then had is "Now, when under fire are we supposed to take out the card and check to see if we can fire back?" Of course not and that's the point. In these types of engagements any hesitation puts you at risk. That's unacceptable. So you're trained to put two aimed rounds through the centre of the target and that's what you do. It's actually your best defence. So if you come under fire from, say, 200 metres you immediately skirmish towards the source of the fire. Of course, what you actually want to do is curl up in a hole somewhere and say "I want my mummy..." but you don't. In the event it's very hard to hit a running jinking figure and they're not going to get that many rounds off before you're on top of them. When you're scared shitless you can cover the ground at an amazing rate of knots. And they know that if we catch them with a weapon we will kill them without the slightest hesitation or remorse. Two aimed rounds through the centre of the target.

 

Was there a "shoot to kill" policy in NI?

 

Put it this way, there was no "shoot to wound" policy....

 

The message here is exactly the same. If we catch you we will kill you - because it's the best line of defence the good guys have - QED.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

I would also add that in many cases these 'problems' are in actuality natural psychological differences, with atypical abilities and difficulties. The 'one size fits all' system doesn't cater to such minorities, and only meets the needs of the 'average' 'normal' 80%.

 

In many cases this is creating a problem in the way you describe, whereas with relatively low-cost appropriate accommodations, schooling, and other social inclusion, they could be valuable members of society rather than a burden. Instead they are round pegs hammered into square holes - and that way you get splinters.

 

Despite that, there are cases of kids who despite these 'failures' at school (the failure being generally that of the school system) then go on to achieve success outside the run-of-the-mill type fields. Weta Workshop (computer graphics for feature films) is actively encouraging dyslexics to join - who often are highly visual and creative, though not well suited to be bank tellers, accountants, and civil servants.

 

One guy with dyslexia who failed dismally at school went on to become a top sound engineer with the Chemical Brothers. Guy Ritchie - the successful film director, so on and so on. For all these 'succeeded despite the system' cases, there are also many others who were not so fortunate, and end up as you describe.

 

Apart from human rights issues, it's a dumb system where 'assets' are turned into liabilities, and the price to pay is huge social and economic cost.

 

I think I understand what you are saying here Skeddan but am I right in getting the impression that you believe that the problem of criminal behaviour lies in the lack of success people have in finding employment or finding a job that suits them best? I tend to feel critical of the idea that success in work is the answer to criminal behaviour as a whole.

 

Are you talking about anti-social behaviours in society or crime as a whole? I ask because drug-taking is so common in society that it cannot wouldn't be linked to mental illness or those who have been failed by the system. And it would appear thar criminal acts are such a diverse number of behaviours that seeing success in employment as the remedy would seem simplistic.

[jimbms]

"I want no warning shots. You have one shot and it must be a kill shot."

Was there a "shoot to kill" policy in NI?

 

Put it this way, there was no "shoot to wound" policy....

 

The message here is exactly the same. If we catch you we will kill you - because it's the best line of defence the good guys have - QED.

It was NOT a shoot to kill policy in N.I. it was a shoot to maximise each shot to it's most effective conclusion, maximising the overall eeffectivness of each round and taking consideration for future safety of the security forces, whilst minimising the risk to other personnel in the immediate area, at the same time using effective aiming to inflict maximum immobilisation of the indicated target in the shortest time possible.

[Skeddan]

LDV - not nearly so simple as just employment. Lonan3 put it extremely well:

Far too often, those problems are either ignored or become the cause of punishments. By the time these kids reach secondary it is, in all but a few cases, too late to do very much to help them because there is already considerable resentment of the 'system' that has let them down so badly.

 

Resentment, disenfranchisment, marginalisation, exclusion, bitterness, hostility....

 

Gifted kids in poor schooling that only caters to the 'average' often fail dismally, becoming withdrawn, restless, 'difficult', etc. to the point of being 'problem children' whose psychological differences present as behavioural problems (ADHD being particularly closely linked with this).

 

There is evidence of neurochemical and neurobiological differences in these children - and that they seek stimulation. (and are very poor at dull boring repetitive mindless tasks). There are all kinds of ways of getting a dopamine fix - some positive, but also others which are not - problem gambling, drug use (particularly amphetamines, cocaine, P), alcohol, thrill seeking behaviours (the buzz of petty crimes sometimes), etc. Drug taking and these other behaviours are linked with psychological differences - e.g. someone with ADHD is 16x more likely to take cocaine (if I remember the study correctly).

 

It is not simply about success in employment - it is about 'social inclusion' i.e. not treating these as outsiders and only heeding the 80%. The 20% who are largely ignored in this way are very highly represented in 80% of the social ills we see - ones that might be brought about by a misguided 'egalitarianism' that insists on treating all people as if they are essentially the same. (no thing so unequal as the equal treatment of unequal peoples - Thomas Jefferson). There are differences in thinking styles, learning styles, personality types etc., but we don't really want to acknowledge that these should be taken account of - possibly because uncomfortable that difference suggests inequality (a fallacy which actually increases inequality).

 

Non-average kids from low socio-economic status backgrounds are the most effected and disadvantaged. Hammer round pegs into square holes and the splinters are not just in the individual, but also those around them.

[Skeddan]

Susan Shabangu, the country's security minister, told officers not to worry about regulations, negotiations or warning shots.

...

....Aiming her words at police chiefs, she said of criminals: "You must kill the bastards if they threaten you or the community. You must not worry about the regulations - that is my responsibility. Your responsibility is to serve and protect.

I've no idea what her definition is of a 'criminal' - someone who appears to be breaking the law and who has not yet been tried and convicted (i.e. innocent until proven guilty).

 

It also strikes me that she is advocating police should break the law. Fortunately for her it seems the police take a different attitude "Police must use firearms only when their lives are in danger - they cannot misuse them," If they took her at her word, maybe she'd have a police bullet in the back of her head.

 

However SA does have horrendous problems and people are not secure and protected given rampant crime there. If there is such a breakdown of law and order as to warrant declaring martial law, then that should be declared and conducted properly. But even then that would not extend to using 'death squad' tactics.

 

To suggest that police should not worry about laws and regulations - whether or not under martial law or where lethal force is involved - seems an outright attack on rule of law and proper government and to encourage lawless vigilanteeism. Crazy and irresponsible IMO.