The New Bishop . . . .

[Skeddan]

Isn't that a cop out?

 

http://www.manxforums.com/forums/index.php...st&p=315955

Not at all. You've obviously forgotten the Golden Rule i.e. those with the gold make the rules.....

 

You must have missed my "apathy reigns supreme" bit, because motivated for change this lot most certainly are not.

Well somehow they keep getting elected, and 'apathy reigns supreme' in the electorate actually doing anything about that. There's a lot that could be done if people really wanted change - I'm starting to think that really no one actually wants anything different - they just like whingeing about it as it is.

[VinnieK]

There's a lot that could be done if people really wanted change - I'm starting to think that really no one actually wants anything different - they just like whingeing about it as it is.

 

Now you're starting to get a real sense of what being Manx is all about about! Gawd bless us.

[Moghrey Mie]

There's a lot that could be done if people really wanted change - I'm starting to think that really no one actually wants anything different - they just like whingeing about it as it is.

 

Now you're starting to get a real sense of what being Manx is all about about! Gawd bless us.

 

 

 

They could make a move in the right direction by getting rid of the prayers before every sitting of Tynwald and the House of Keys.

 

Making new laws and setting a budget for the island is not a religious process.And the purpose of our parliament is not to make sure that 'the lords will is done throughout the land'

 

Those who want to pray could do so privately before each session begins.

[keyboarder]

Contrary to what a very small but very noisy minority think, and want the rest of us to think, it is not apathy that prevents some sort of uprising, it is the fact that the majority are actually served rather well by the existing system and have done rather well as a result of it.

[P.K.]

Contrary to what a very small but very noisy minority think, and want the rest of us to think, it is not apathy that prevents some sort of uprising, it is the fact that the majority ruling minority are actually served rather well by the existing system and have done rather extremely well as a result of it.

Fixed!

 

Really - describing Mec Valium as a "very small but very noisy minority" - just what planet are you on?

[Skeddan]

Contrary to what a very small but very noisy minority think, and want the rest of us to think, it is not apathy that prevents some sort of uprising, it is the fact that the majority ruling minority are actually served rather well by the existing system and have done rather extremely well as a result of it.

Fixed!

 

Really - describing Mec Valium as a "very small but very noisy minority" - just what planet are you on?

maybe a very very quiet planet where hardly a whisper is heard?

 

Now you mention MV - one of the reasons for lack of change is perhaps that MV have failed so dismally in being an effective political force and opposition group.

 

You make it seem that IoM is a pseudo-democracy which is really just a sham to legitimise the power held by the ruling minority. Is that actually your view?

[keyboarder]

Really - describing Mec Valium as a "very small but very noisy minority" - just what planet are you on?

maybe a very very quiet planet where hardly a whisper is heard?

 

I wasn't referring to Mec Vannin, who strike me as a being a clown troupe - I was referring predominantly to you two. (amongst others)

[Skeddan]

No - as I said, if people wanted things to change they could bring this about - so I guess people are happy with things as they are despite the moans and gripes one hears.

 

This sounds like you are saying that now is a glorious summer painted to be a winter of discontent by a noisy few. The existing system with no FOI, bishop having a vote, LegCo, patronage influence over MHKs, lack of anti-corruption measures, and power in hands of executive may indeed serve people rather well as you suggest. However the evidence is that a full democracy performs better than a flawed democracy - and the lower the possibility of corruption the healthier the economy. Big dividends in GDP result from improvements. So maybe by not embracing change the system isn't serving people quite so well - albeit perhaps serving a minority very much better that way.

 

Anyway, there don't seem to be that many champions of the status quo - in fact keyboarder you seem to be the only one who praises it so unreservedly. Still if you think you represent the views of the majority and not a tiny minority....

[P.K.]

I was referring predominantly to you two. (amongst others)

Excellent choice of words - predominantly + (amongst others)! Can I use that please?

 

Face it, LegCo is an unelected gravy train. And patronage is key to the current system between both the un-elected and the elected houses. Now, where are the checks and balances? Let's look at the format first of all. The elected members vote in the CM who then distributes favours by way of portfolios that pay rather well don'tcha know. Definitely room for an "I'll scratch your back etc etc" type of patronage there. For the moment we will ignore how the CM figures out which folks will be best at the various posts in CoMin. My own personal opinion is that he scatters chicken bones.... The CM and those he has appointed to CoMin are then effectively a "power block" which to me is a big no-no. For example MHK's will want tax dollars by way of CoMin efforts spent in their constituencies. If you are not on CoMin that might prove difficult....

 

MHK's then vote in various parts of LegCo every few years or so. Now between them they lowered the voting age to 16 and they also have a Bishop sitting from a bygone age who has a vote on LegCo. Does that combination of forward thinking coupled to an anachronistic system send out a mixed message? Not to me it doesn't. Oh no, to me the message on the Tynwald operation is coming through load and clear.

 

Secondly where is the accountability? A minister was found to have knowingly misled Tynwald by both a Commission of Inquiry and a Standards Committee and he's still there with the same portfolio. MEA ran up debts of millions with Tynwald apparently blissfully unaware of what was going on in what has become a depressingly familiar scenario. Don't even begin to look at Skyward! Any resignations? Anyone up before the beak? Of course not! Because why should there be when there is no accountability.

 

I think this is a problem:

Here are some simple numbers to put it in perspective:

 

In the UK there are 600+ MP's representing 60+m inhabitants. So you are basically looking for one talented individual amongst 100K of the population who wants to be a politician and claim all those unaccountable allowances. Not just possible but highly probable. Moving on to cabinet level it's something like 25 out of the population which works out at a cabinet member per 2.5 million souls. Believe it or not you're bound to find talent there.

 

In the IOM you have to find a talented individual who wants to be a politician in each 2k of the population....

 

And you all stand back surprised when you find they're a bit rubbish - dear me.

In the UK there is a food chain that includes checks and balances all the way to the top:

Parish/Town Council -> District Council -> County Council -> HOC -> Cabinet -> PM -> HOL including powerful and authoritive committees and select committees with Public Accounts and Standards being absolutely key - none of which exist in Tynwald.

 

Gravy train.

[VinnieK]

Anyway, there don't seem to be that many champions of the status quo - in fact keyboarder you seem to be the only one who praises it so unreservedly. Still if you think you represent the views of the majority and not a tiny minority....

 

You can't really take a lack of praise (especially on here) as a sign that the majority must have serious criticisms that they're simply not voicing though. For a start, criticism is usually more passionate, and voiced more frequently than praise is (especially in relation to politics - generally if things are good people are of the opinion that that is the government doing the job it's there for, so no praise is warranted), and it's often amplified on an internet forum.

 

The Island's system of government isn't perfect of course, and there are some serious flaws and weaknesses, but I don't think the level or intensity of discontent shown on here can be taken as fully representative of the Island as a whole. Were it so, then as you suggest, people would probably do something about it.

[keyboarder]

I'm neither praising the status quo unreservedly or denying the existence of a gravy train but making an observation of how I see things. If it ain't broke you don't fix it and for as long as most people on the island feel that they're doing all right for themselves they are not going to want to venture into unknown territory for the sake of it. Of course that could change but in my experience the last thing everyone has issues with over here is the fact that an unelected bishop gets a vote.

[Skeddan]

Anyway, there don't seem to be that many champions of the status quo - in fact keyboarder you seem to be the only one who praises it so unreservedly. Still if you think you represent the views of the majority and not a tiny minority....

 

You can't really take a lack of praise (especially on here) as a sign that the majority must have serious criticisms that they're simply not voicing though.

 

 

VinnieK - to clarify, I wasn't suggesting lack of praise to be sign that majority have criticisms. Rather it seemed that keyboarder was saying the majority are happy with the existing system - I was indicating that there did not seem to be any evidence of this - other than what seemed to be keyboarder's claim.

 

It could be that most people do actually really like things as they are. (Even if, as you say, there are 'serious flaws').

 

Also - I of course recognise that it is absolutely true that MF posters should not be taken as representative of the population as a whole. (and also agree with the other points you make).

 

Meanwhile keyboarder has made his views a bit clearer:-

 

I'm neither praising the status quo unreservedly or denying the existence of a gravy train but making an observation of how I see things. If it ain't broke you don't fix it and for as long as most people on the island feel that they're doing all right for themselves they are not going to want to venture into unknown territory for the sake of it.

 

"if it ain't broke, don't fix it" sounds well and good. At what point do you consider that it might need 'fixing'? If you are not denying the existence of a gravy train (or even that with the current system there may be high perception of corruption or 'gravy trains'), then is that not something that warrants attention?

 

Addressing such issues is not 'venturing into unknown territory'. FOI, anti-corruption measures, checks and balances, accountabilities, etc. are all measures which are well established in other territories. Nor as you suggest would this be 'just for the sake of it'. See the '300% dividend' and analysis and studies of economic benefits of such measures which reduce how a system scores in the 'corruption perception index'.

 

To give a topical example, £44m spending in IoM is a big chunk which can mop up a lot of gravy. White elephant projects can lead to bailouts, have serious negative economic impacts, and divert spending from worthwhile investments (albeit ones without gravy and sleaze).

 

Regardless of whether or not the majority have strong feelings about such reforms (possibly from lack of attention given to it in media and lack of effective political parties or opposition), such measures would still be warranted. Given such general agreement by economists of the economic benefits and dividends, one has to wonder why IoMG would be remiss in embracing such progress. Either they are ineffective in serving the interests of the general public, are serving other interests, or perhaps IoM is somehow exceptional - or maybe some other reason?

 

BTW - what P.K says about how existing system enables patronage and back-scratching seems pretty sound to me.