[BBC News] Pair held after double stabbing

[jimbms]

Here here shoepatshoe I am with you all the way, your leaning against an open door here.

[thebees]

Shoepatshoe - in reply to ..... (edit)

 

 

People like me? Where have I ever spoken of human rights? The Police? You have to be joking, I have a 'friend' who was a copper in Liverpool the stories he told made me sick. You are off your head.

[Lonan3]

In my family there have been two men who were in the police back in the 50's and '60s. They would often tell stories about how they would approach gangs of youths who were loitering around on the streets and tell them in no uncertain terms to disappear off the streets and stop hanging around in a gang. The gangs of smoking teenagers would reluctantly drag themselves off into the distance and no trouble would break out. Why? Because <and I quote> "All it took was a couple of jabs in the ribs with my nightstick and they got the message".

 

No matter how hard you think you are - a light smack round the head with a truncheon is still going to hurt and make you reconsider how clever you are being.

 

Give the police the power to give these kids a bit of instant punishment and see what happens. And if their parents don't like it, give them a smack too. And if they still don't get the message THEN give them the birch.

I think if there's anyone who needs a smack around the head with a truncheon, it's probably someone who's pathetic enough to write such an incredible load of shite as that.

 

Those were the days, weren't they? When policemen were six foot tall, five foot wide - and thick as bloody planks!

 

If you're talking about the IoM, there certainly weren't any 'gangs of youths who were loitering around on the streets.' In fact, from my recollection, if you were on your own or there were just a couple of you out and about much after 11 pm - you'd be treated to a clip 'round the ear and told to get home. Any more of you than that and it'd be a fairly polite "Evenin' lads... shouldn't you be headin' off home, now?"

The truncheon (Lignum vitae if I recall correctly) was mainly used for pushing 'drunks' off the line they were required to walk along, or to trip them up on their way down to the cells behind the old courthouse.

[manxy]

Where as, look at the schools in Africa - where the children are silent immediately when the teacher walks in the room. They address the teacher as "sir", or "miss" and speak politely at all times. When the teacher speaks to them, they listen and follow instructions. They have respect, where as the problem children here - at large - have none.

The difference in much of Africa is that school is seen as a way of getting out of poverty which is rife there. Get expelled there and you're back in the gutter, work on a farm and get ill - and you probably can't afford treatment at the doctors so are likely to die from something seen as simple to deal with here. They also still have a generally very religious background.

 

Everything here is now taken for granted. Fall in the gutter here and the state throws money at you. Perhaps part of the rehabilitation process would be to send some of these problems kids to board in schools in Africa for a year.

Now wouldn't that be interesting Having a short term placement in an area that doesn't have the latest fashions, electronic equipment, mobile phones, off licenses, drug dealers etc and learn to live by the laws of the land.

For instance, (generalizing now) if they are told to keep out of the water, then there's probably a good reason to stay out of it. They could always break the rules of course, but I'm sure the local crocs would appreciate a bite to eat now and again.

Rules are there for a purpose and as much as some seem outright stupid, there's probably some reasoning behind them and IMO, parents have a responsibility to encourage their offspring to respect other people, other peoples properties and themselves.

 

There may be people who disagree with what I've wrote and thats ok, as it's their opinion, but I would expect to hear their personal opinion on the area I quoted from.

[Skeddan]

I wouldn't hang a criminal justice policy decision on the fond battle stories of yesteryear from PC plod.

 

I'm more impressed with the arguments put forward by the former Chief Constable of Thames Valley Police (and Member of Youth Justice Board for England and Wales).

 

Unlike the anecdotes of the magic of the truncheon, it's also backed by some evidence it works.

 

Victim satisfaction up from 33% to 75-100%

Reoffending rates down by 30-60% - sometimes with shorter sentences.

etc.

[manxy]

I wouldn't hang a criminal justice policy decision on the fond battle stories of yesteryear from PC plod.

 

I'm more impressed with the arguments put forward by the former Chief Constable of Thames Valley Police (and Member of Youth Justice Board for England and Wales).

 

Unlike the anecdotes of the magic of the truncheon, it's also backed by some evidence it works.

 

Victim satisfaction up from 33% to 75-100%

Reoffending rates down by 30-60% - sometimes with shorter sentences.

etc.

Nearly spilt my tea when I saw your comments Skeddan as I initially mistook 'victim satisfaction' for that of 'Police satisfaction' from using their truncheons on their victims

(it's been a long day and my kids might have to meet Mr Broom - Only joking!)

[shoepatshoe]

I think if there's anyone who needs a smack around the head with a truncheon, it's probably someone who's pathetic enough to write such an incredible load of shite as that.

 

Those were the days, weren't they? When policemen were six foot tall, five foot wide - and thick as bloody planks!

 

If you're talking about the IoM, there certainly weren't any 'gangs of youths who were loitering around on the streets.' In fact, from my recollection, if you were on your own or there were just a couple of you out and about much after 11 pm - you'd be treated to a clip 'round the ear and told to get home. Any more of you than that and it'd be a fairly polite "Evenin' lads... shouldn't you be headin' off home, now?"

The truncheon (Lignum vitae if I recall correctly) was mainly used for pushing 'drunks' off the line they were required to walk along, or to trip them up on their way down to the cells behind the old courthouse.

 

I'm completely baffled as to why you would consider what I wrote as an incredible load of shite? And why I would be pathetic! Ok the last line was supposed to be a little tongue in cheek, but what possible problem could you have with the rest of it?

 

a) Both men in question were 6 foot plus and you would probably describe them as five foot wide.

b) They are/were both close members of my family and I can assure you were not thick as bloody planks. Both men were very well respected, reached high positions within the police and retired with distinction.

c) It wasn't on the Isle of Man it was in Manchester and Birkenhead.

d) Yes the normal procedure was "Right lads, whats going on? Lets move it along eh?" The reason they didn't turn round to my uncle or father in law and give them a gobful of abuse was because they knew they was perfectly capable and prepared to dish out a quick reminder of who was in a position of power.

 

I am genuinely baffled by your response Lonan and thought you were a bit more savvy than that. The Bees - yes. You? No.

[keyboarder]

Nothing like a good domestic to bring the lunatic fringe out. Force scruffy yoof into the army? Please, there's enough people yomping each other senseless and trotting out tired lines about the lads getting the job done. Unless of course they're bringing back fodder, lol...

 

Cheeky boy and Gladys - you've got a nerve taking on the roles of right and wrong judges and suggesting imposition of birth control. I personally find your dog's excrement a much bigger problem than some notorious poor people on Pulrose and similar. A world run by your standards, well we'd all be stabbing ourselves before long........ ; )

[shoepatshoe]

Nothing like a good domestic to bring the lunatic fringe out. Force scruffy yoof into the army? Please, there's enough people yomping each other senseless and trotting out tired lines about the lads getting the job done. Unless of course they're bringing back fodder, lol...

 

Cheeky boy and Gladys - you've got a nerve taking on the roles of right and wrong judges and suggesting imposition of birth control. I personally find your dog's excrement a much bigger problem than some notorious poor people on Pulrose and similar. A world run by your standards, well we'd all be stabbing ourselves before long........ ; )

 

*WHACK* Move along please.

[Cret]

I personally find your dog's excrement a much bigger problem than some notorious poor people on Pulrose and similar.

 

Have you seen them in particular leaving it on your doorstep or something?

[P.K.]

As for the point of the Armed forces changing people, I fully agree, I joined at 17 an evil little scroat, left the Army at nearly 30, 5 A levels and a degree later with a commission and a few years of being a legal evil scroat, but with more respect for others and without the attitude that I could punch my way out of any problem. So for me I would make 3 years national service an option to courts as an alternative to prison. I defy anyone to go through 3 yrs with some of the old style NCO's and go back to their old ways.

I think a lot of folks have seen "Bad Lads Army" and so forth and think shoving scrotes into the forces is a solution. I disagree. Firstly the "Bad Lads" didn't join the forces - they joined a tv reality show! Secondly by their very nature ill-disciplined scrotes are surely the hardest to pull into line and will probably waste everyone's time by falling short pretty quickly.

 

Tee hee! I can tell you fully understand the situation and speak with considerable authority - an inability to read even a simple report such as the one provided by Skedden and answering entirely in clichés (can't lead a horse to water, psych units are just finding excuses for crime) is the sign of a truly honed and knowledgable mind. God bless you though, you'd be nowhere near as entertaining if you weren't so choc full of shit.

Don't worry, my reading abilities are just fine. It's just that the report, like your posts, is incredibly boring i.e. why use ten words when fifty will do? When you move up the hierarchy you call on sme's to do your legwork for you and that's what I've got used to I suppose. But, of course, you wouldn't know that....

 

Now, how to teach respect?

 

1) Example

2) Instruction, correction - with love

3) Enforcement (discipline)

4) Repetition

 

Unfortunately, these points are often lacking in family life today. There has been a tremendous breakdown of the family (for a number of reasons). The family is the foundation of society. What you learn within the four walls of your family home will impact you significantly for the rest of your life. Get the first 15 or so years of a child's life wrong there... and you'll spend a long time thereafter trying to make up for it.

I agree. IMHO you only need to look at the role models these scrotes have had to see where it's all going wrong. The Welfare State was designed to help those falling behind. However it was created in a time when "all work was honourable". Folks would be ashamed of asking for handouts and having to be means tested and so forth. All that has pretty much gone as far as I can tell. For "the underclass" the Welfare State is there to be exploited - simple as. The more brats you have the better house you get, the more dosh you can spend on booze and fags and so forth. So they breed and breed and are perpetuating a downward spiral which eventually leads to the three quite disgusting murders I have highlighted.

 

How to break out of the spiral is a real problem and as we are talking generations here there can ONLY ever be a long term solution - it's not exactly rocket science. But there is another problem - we have to also deal with the here and now - the feral scrotes running amock in our society.

 

I think we've made a rod for our own backs by removing the types of punishment that is the only thing they understand. You have to remember that any sign of clemency is viewed in scrote-land as both a weakness and an opportunity. So they push the boundaries until they commit the ultimate crime - murder. Zero tolerance is the only way to make our streets safer. It's not tough on those locked up either. You don't need psychatrists reports and so forth to figure out if the miscreants knew the difference between right and wrong. Simple as. Some would clearly benefit from education and reform programs but we all have to face the fact that some will not. Fortunately there is a simple solution to prevent them re-offending.

 

As the Welfare State has created this downward spiral then clearly it is the Welfare State that has to change. How to change it wins you $64,000...

[Miss Take]

Don't worry, my reading abilities are just fine. It's just that the report, like your posts, is incredibly boring

 

[Gladys]

Cheeky boy and Gladys - you've got a nerve taking on the roles of right and wrong judges and suggesting imposition of birth control. I personally find your dog's excrement a much bigger problem than some notorious poor people on Pulrose and similar. A world run by your standards, well we'd all be stabbing ourselves before long........ ; )

 

 

Should be 'dogs' excrement', in the plural as I have two!

 

Why do I have a nerve to voice my opinion? My views are based on the premise that the decline in social repsonsibility is because the state has removed the individual's obligation (and right) to be responsible for their own actions and to deal with the consequences, be it in stabbing someone or taking all they can from society without putting something back in return. I wouldn't go as far as Cheeky Boy, but I think he exagerates to make a point, and to that extent I agree.

 

I don't want a nanny state where I cease to have any real responsibility for myself, because I want to have the freedom to decide what I do and how I do it, providing I do not adversely affect anyone else or break 'real' laws. The flip side of that is that I do not want a nanny state which cradles those who have abrogated all responsibility for their actions to the state.

 

Back to the dog excrement argument, I doubt you will find my dogs' excrement offensive as part of my sense of social responsibilty is to dispose of it in the proper manner. However, there are those who consider that their once their dog's excrement lands on the street it ceases to be anything to do with them as it is now donated to society to deal with.

[ai_Droid]

Gah, I agree with Dj Dan and PK. The worlds gone all wonky. Heylp! Heylp!

[jimbms]

I think a lot of folks have seen "Bad Lads Army" and so forth and think shoving scrotes into the forces is a solution. I disagree. Firstly the "Bad Lads" didn't join the forces - they joined a tv reality show! Secondly by their very nature ill-disciplined scrotes are surely the hardest to pull into line and will probably waste everyone's time by falling short pretty quickly.

I think you will find I never even mentioned that show, I was refering to the real armed forces for 3 years not some mickey mouse staged TV comedy show for a couple of weeks. As for your comment on these scroats being the hardest to pull in line, bollocks even the worst eventualy break down and unlike the TV show theres no option to leave and I can assure you if they end up in military prison they will never want to see prison again. A secondary bonus is that conscripts are usualy the first to be sent into the shitty situation in combat so we could get rid of a few there whilst saving the decent ones.