[BBC News] Pair held after double stabbing

[VinnieK]

It isn't tugging off about public justice, it is about being fed up of being required to 'understand' people who commit violent crimes, don't give two shits about their offspring and teaching them right from wrong and don't make any contribution to society and, far worse, believe that society owes them!

 

I am aware of the issue, and I myself do believe that the law has become too lenient in many respects (but also that efforts to rehabilitate, re-educate, and deal with the causes of crime have been largely lack lustre and half cocked).

 

However, bringing up the good old PIRA or sterilization of this apparent genetically determined underclass is nothing more than a daily mail style circle jerk of bluster.

 

Much has been made of deterrance and harsh policing and sentences, I can't see why this should work. In many respects, the U.S. is far less compassionate than the U.K. and harsher in its sentences (as well as less generous with its welfare), and yet the per capita rates of murder (both in general, and specifically those involving adolescents gone off the rails), rape, and use of drugs is either the same or higher than that of the U.K., suggesting that "teaching the bastards a lesson" alone wont help.

[Gladys]

So what is your answer, Vinnie?

 

I don't think you can compare the UK or the IOM with the US; there are very different factors operating in the US, historical and social. But both are feeling the effects of the same - a lack of self-imposed discipline, an unwillingness to contribute to society and a lack of responsibility.

 

By the by, I believe that Cheeky Boy would rather cut his nads off with a rusty knife than read the Mail, but I may be wrong.

 

I, on the other hand, am quite willing to take the tokens from the Mail for a free dinner service - great offer!

[cheeky boy]

Whilst I make no apologies for my proposed solution to the underclass issue, I do have some experience of a more wishy washy liberal approach to the problem

 

Some years ago I used to take several of these young scumbags out fishing, they would be around 12 yrs old at the time and were well known to the police

 

Given the opportunity to go out fishing they suddenly found the words please & thank you and were good as gold on the boat

 

They came from the kind of family most of us on MF could not imagine, yet in the right circumstances they could be funny, helpful, and compassionate

 

So I suppose the conclusion I have reached is that people are born good but corrupted by their elders

 

So it's back to eugenics then

[Hermes]

If you stab anyone in any part of their body it IS attempted murder, simply because the chances are that anywhere within reach of a knife can bleed to death - be it leg, arm ,chest, abdomen, neck or head.

This is very similar to the fact that it IS murder if you deliberately carry a weapon to somebody's house and then kill them.

There is simply no argument that can prove that in the Isle of Man anyone is skilled and experienced enough to wield a knife so as to be 100% sure that they will not kill the person they are facing off against. Any court cases that have tried to prove otherwise are seriously flawed.

[VinnieK]

So what is your answer, Vinnie?

 

I'm not sure there is an answer. Certainly a greater police presence might help, but so to might an end to vast tracts of council housing that effectively ghettoizes the poor and limits them to the poor schools and services that end up establishing a sense of hopelessness to their situation, along with serious initiatives to minimise the effect of the welfare trap. After all, what we want to see is a larger number of people being integrated into society and have a stake in it - not marginalise people further by increasing the severity with which justice is served without also trying to adress some of the problems people face in society.

[Gladys]

Vinnie, we are talking about the vast tract of Pulrose here. Which, by the by, is undergoing a substantial refurbishment giving modern, attractive and warm housing to all, hardly a ghetto. I wouldn't say that Pulrose school is a poor school, I don't think there is such a thing here; we do not have the inner city problems and schools are still relatively small.

 

So your solution then?

[localyokel]

Vinnie, we are talking about the vast tract of Pulrose here. Which, by the by, is undergoing a substantial refurbishment giving modern, attractive and warm housing to all, hardly a ghetto.

 

Be fair though Glady's - you can upgrade the housing but you can't do anything about the people that move back into it. Just because an estate now looks nice does not mean that anyone living there appreciates it more or that they stop living their lives in a particular way.

[Heathen]

I think prison should be like a zoo, so we could pay to go and look at the inmates. And there should be a little sign outside the cell saying what that person was in there for, so we could all point and laugh and throw cabbages at them.

 

I'm intrigued by your ideas and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

[Newsbot]

A man and a woman are charged in connection with a double stabbing at a house in Pulrose.

 

Source : http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/-/1/hi/world/...man/7357300.stm

[gazza]

could do with a rifle again

 

for what?

 

shooting things!!!!,

couple of blackbacks gulls need knocking off round here, b4 thay kill everything in sight

[VinnieK]

Vinnie, we are talking about the vast tract of Pulrose here.

 

Well yes, I was speaking in a more general sense admittedly, though I still think finding an alternative to the council estate is worthwhile - pully might not quite be a ghetto, but it still has a fair share of problems and estates all over still resemble a ghetto in that they're entire areas that are largely defined by economic disadvantage and pressures.

 

So your solution then?

 

Did you miss the bit where I said I was in favour of an increased police presence, and for a less lenient criminal system (at least in terms of length of sentences)? Or the implicit suggestion that efforts to rehabilitate those who commit crimes need to be stepped up? Elsewhere in similar discussions I've also agreed with others' comments (Albert Tatlock's, specifically) on the needs for special unit schools dedicated to trying to sort out trouble kids and mitigate the effects of poor parenting.

 

Again, I'm all in favour of beefing up the police and sentencing combined with greater efforts being made to try and deal with some of the social problems that are commonly held to nurture and exacerbate criminal activity. What I'm not in favour of are empty handed gestures to "set examples" and the idea that crime can be dealt with by force alone.

[immortalpuppet]

I am all in favor of hard time. I was jailed in the Army for 2 weeks and it was fecking horrible, up at 05:30 for cell inspection at 06:00 then it was off to the square for a bit of PT while the rest of the regiment were in the cookhouse laughing at you through the windows.

 

07:00 was breakfast time followed by Drill at 08:00 for an hour. After changing out of full dress uniform it was into overalls for litter patrol around camp (again walking past the regiment who were at work by this time.) once the litter was picked up then we had to sweep the parade square until lunch time at 12:30.

 

After lunch there was some more PT and then some more drill followed by a rest in the training wing where you got an hour to read through army regulations and trade skill books. Afternoon inspection was at 16:00 and evening meal at 17:30. Guard parade at 19:00 and lights out at 20:00. If you were lucky you had a good guard commander who would leave you to get on with your washing and ironing but sometimes you would get a dick who would make you buff the floors in the guard house and generally fuck you about until lights out.

 

Also you dont get paid when you are in Jail so the next month you were notonly knackered but skint aswell. Hardly anyone i know reoffended and the fear of jail was enough to stop people fucking around in most cases.

 

Chances of doing hard time in Europe? none, but its ok for people to have rights to watch telle and get wasted on drugs while inside.

[aimeejulia]

I agree with immortalpuppet, jail should be a deterrent not a holiday

[Stu Peters]

One of the (probably) knee-jerk reactions I'm guilty of is suggesting that troublesome youths should be given four choices - jail, or a spell in one of the forces. My parents got the Daily Mail, so I blame them for my lack of originality.

 

However, I'd be interested in immortalpuppet's view on this as a device - in that he's been there and done that.

 

One counter-argument is that the last thing the forces need is a load of yobs to straighten out, and the last thing society needs is a yob who's been taught how to intimidate and hurt people to a professional standard.

 

The simplistic view is that national service for anyone over (18?) who isn't in full-time employment, or who repeat offends, would teach a whole set of values and instil discipline that's often absent at home.

 

Your thoughts?

[triskelion]

I agree with immortalpuppet, jail should be a deterrent not a holiday

If your idea of a holiday isa few years being a heroin addict in a small room watching a bit of telly then you need to broaden your horizons a bit.

 

No doubt IP's experience was effective, but it only worked because he was humiliated in front of his peers. Hard to see how that could be done in civilian life.