[BBC News] Pair held after double stabbing

[immortalpuppet]

The forces get a few people who have been given the choice of jail or service, usually these people last to the end of the first week (breaking in week.) and then cry home to mummy because the nasty men shouted at them and made them do hard things.

 

One of the common factors with the majority of these people is the lack of respect for anything other than their reputations. No respect for other people or property and living without consiquence (spelling?) is not a good foundation for being the forces in my opinion. Although knowing a couple of tearaways on the Island who have attempted military service and failed early on, they did take stock of their lives and the short experience made them better people (in their words.)

 

National service comes up alot in these discussions and would this sort out the country? my thoughts are that it wouldnt and it would turn our armed forces into a bunch of ill disciplined muppets.

[immortalpuppet]

I agree with immortalpuppet, jail should be a deterrent not a holiday

If your idea of a holiday isa few years being a heroin addict in a small room watching a bit of telly then you need to broaden your horizons a bit.

 

No doubt IP's experience was effective, but it only worked because he was humiliated in front of his peers. Hard to see how that could be done in civilian life.

 

 

Being humiliated in front of the lads did play a big factor in making me feel ashamed, and i feel to a certain degree played a huge part in the rehabilitation process. But i would not say that the humiliation was the only part of what was effective.

 

ooo and the US have quite a good scheme for this, think about Boy George or that crazy ass model having to clean public toilets or public litter duty while wearing a big orange jail uniform.

 

Nobles park is wrecked every weekend, why not get offenders to clean up the mess that some rascals have left for them.

[P.K.]

After changing out of full dress uniform

Presumably Two's and not Blues?

 

Say you had still been on report when the rest had to depart for two weeks in winter out on Sennybridge ranges? I know who would have had the last laugh.

 

One of the (probably) knee-jerk reactions I'm guilty of is suggesting that troublesome youths should be given four choices - jail, or a spell in one of the forces. My parents got the Daily Mail, so I blame them for my lack of originality.

 

However, I'd be interested in immortalpuppet's view on this as a device - in that he's been there and done that.

 

One counter-argument is that the last thing the forces need is a load of yobs to straighten out, and the last thing society needs is a yob who's been taught how to intimidate and hurt people to a professional standard.

 

The simplistic view is that national service for anyone over (18?) who isn't in full-time employment, or who repeat offends, would teach a whole set of values and instil discipline that's often absent at home.

It's a professional army and probably the best in the world by the simple virtue that it's voluntary. Anyway the last thing you want is an untrustworthy scrote watching your six. Even as a nod there is still a hell of a lot to learn.

 

I liked Joe Arpaio's view - if the jails are full that's good as it means less filth on the streets. I don't actually care how re-habilitation is achieved, it can be either by education or by punishment. If the result is the same then that will do for me i.e. horses for courses.

 

So instead of scrotes bailed for "reports" I would like to see them doing menial tasks for society during the day such as cleaning streets etc in a readily recognisable uniform such as pink coveralls and under a military type of discipline during their "free" time. Meals and accommodation to be paid for by the "parents".

[immortalpuppet]

Say you had still been on report when the rest had to depart for two weeks in winter out on Sennybridge ranges? I know who would have had the last laugh.

 

Two`s all the way, Blues were for weddings !!

 

One of the lads got jailed for a week while we went live firing up the Hebs.... Lucky twat!

[Do the Navan Walk]

Class?

 

What is class?

 

If society does insist to make divisions then the voids will be filled.

 

If there were no voids then there would be no divisions. The alleged top flighters piss on the alleged bottom flighters and in reverse. In Regard to the previous poster who with experience showed that we are all the same.

 

Never forget the bowl you were baked in!

 

If a fellow human being was getting the poo poo kicked out of him/her in the gutter would you walk on by or TRY to make a difference?

 

Evil and cancer do not have any class barriers you would do well to heed to that fact.

 

It is not rocket science, it is a belief that we are all equal. Show me a human who poo poo's gold bars and I will show you your past present and future.

 

Do the Navan Walk

[P.K.]

It is not rocket science, it is a belief that we are all equal.

"Of course all men are equal, it's just that some are more equal than others..." - originally Animal Farm iirc.

 

Complete and utter tosh of course. What, we all have an equal iq, equal physique, equal talent, equal character and boringly on into infinite? Of course we don't. Norms are set by the majority i.e. the majority frown upon those who stab others with a sharp implement with a view to killing them. That's not too difficult to understand now is it? Jeeeze....

[Do the Navan Walk]

PK

 

- are you a strong or weak acid?

 

You will make a decent journo/hack. Pick your quote and send it incorrect (you must LEARN to read what is written, and then try to understand or ask before quoting) , we are all equal but your response magnifies my point.

 

Just keep loving yourself and all will be well.

 

Do the Navan Walk

[Skeddan]

So your solution then?

 

Did you miss the bit where I said I was in favour of an increased police presence, and for a less lenient criminal system (at least in terms of length of sentences)? Or the implicit suggestion that efforts to rehabilitate those who commit crimes need to be stepped up? Elsewhere in similar discussions I've also agreed with others' comments (Albert Tatlock's, specifically) on the needs for special unit schools dedicated to trying to sort out trouble kids and mitigate the effects of poor parenting.

 

Again, I'm all in favour of beefing up the police and sentencing combined with greater efforts being made to try and deal with some of the social problems that are commonly held to nurture and exacerbate criminal activity. What I'm not in favour of are empty handed gestures to "set examples" and the idea that crime can be dealt with by force alone.

There are some good papers in this publication by the Smith Institute: http://www.smith-institute.org.uk/pdfs/soc...nal-justice.pdf

 

If one is looking for 'solutions' in terms of approaches with proven success at reducing reoffending, this short paper on restorative justice and social inclusion is well worth a read:

 

Social inclusion – the missing ingredient in criminal justice reform

(by Sir Charles Pollard, Former Chief Constable of Thames Valley Police and Member of the Youth Justice Board for England & Wales)

[Typhoid]

I can't remember who it was after trawling through so many pages but somebody very early on posted about status, aspiration and probable future. Unfortunately they concluded - inexplicably - that heftier punishments were the answer (because that worked in the US ). Since then other, Maggie Thatcher inspired, posters have suggested that rolling back the welfare system would be a good idea (because that worked in the US ).

 

The causal factors and remedies are manifold but the poster who mentioned status, aspiration and probable future was definitely on to something IMO. I certainly don't pretend to have the panacea but I would like to add something.

 

We all, like other social animals, seek status, consciously or not. For most in Western societies status is derived from academic achievement and/or economic achievement and is usually manifest in pieces of paper and material possessions. Once achieved parents strive to pass on this capital and cultural capital to their children by inheritance and up-bringing. If you have little chance of gaining these achievements legitimately, e.g. if you are trapped in a certain self-perpetuating poor cultural class, then status is sought through different means. If academic skills and/or material wealth cannot be inherited by children why is it a surprise that some grow-up to disregard a system which is inherently unfair and instead seek alternative avenues to achieving status? Or, why not just turn to drugs? There's no hope, no future anyway. The playing ground is uneven at birth, why bother playing?

 

How would heavier punishments help this? The self-righteous among us might be satisfied to read of the teenager with no prospects getting sentenced to 15 years for spraying his name on the back of a signpost. Keep him off the streets. Teach him a lesson. Provide an example to his peers. Well, there's one less thug to worry about for a while, who cares why he ended up in court? And the next one. Serves him right. And the next, and the next. Just like the US and UK. Lock them all up. Put a big, barred plaster on top and forget about the problem. Which is still there.

 

How would rolling back the welfare system help this? Maybe it'd lower our taxes? Maybe it'd make some of us feel, after putting down Atlas Shrugged for a moment, like we weren't helping the retrobates to continue being retrobates? They'd get off their arses if they didn't have benefits to live on. Then they'd make an effort to play by our rules, even though the odds are stacked and many don't even know what the rules are or how to play. In reality, however, the situation worsens (the US again) as the poor get poorer and recourse to status, and indeed survival, is restricted.

 

IMHO, both of these 'solutions' would exasperate the situation.

 

What have the US, UK, Ireland and the IoM got in common? An economic system that creates and sustains inequality, places the creation and possession of money/property at the pinnacle of existence and expects those with the least chance of reaching this lofty apex to know and play by the rules, or even play at all when their actual survival is in doubt.

[P.K.]

PK

 

- are you a strong or weak acid?

 

You will make a decent journo/hack. Pick your quote and send it incorrect (you must LEARN to read what is written, and then try to understand or ask before quoting) , we are all equal but your response magnifies my point.

 

Just keep loving yourself and all will be well.

 

Do the Navan Walk

I don't know what he's on but I want some....

 

Skeddan - As a read it's as dry as dust - synopsis please.

[VinnieK]

There are some good papers in this publication by the Smith Institute: http://www.smith-institute.org.uk/pdfs/soc...nal-justice.pdf

 

If one is looking for 'solutions' in terms of approaches with proven success at reducing reoffending, this short paper on restorative justice and social inclusion is well worth a read:

 

I've only scanned through some of the papers, but so far they've proven interesting. Particularly interesting was mention being made of the closure of psychiatric facilities and its relationship to crime. There have been quite a few cases in the news recently about particularly "senseless" murders (Sophie Lancaster, for instance) where I've felt that the offenders should have been sentenced to a high security psychiatric institute rather than a regular prison.

 

Unfortunately, any attempt to seriously tackle crime is going to meet with considerable opposition - trying to identify and combat the factors that contribute to or exacerbate crime is ultimately more expensive and much more complicated than a lot of people are willing to countenance, and looks far too much like trying to "understand" criminals. Especially when compared with the appealingly, but in my view flawed, simple formula of increased force bringing criminals to heel.

 

In my view crime needs to be attacked on two fronts: a greater police presence, longer sentencing for violent crime (with the possibility of indefinite sentencing combined with psyche evaluation for particularly violent criminals who prove resistant to rehab), and more intensive rehabilitation efforts to try and deal with existing criminals, combined with a proper effort to sort out some of the problems that contribute to crime.

 

The only problem is: Where does the money come from? And does the public really have the will necessary to allow such measures?

[cheeky boy]

Typhoid

 

I don't buy the lack of status or achievement as a cause of crime argument, otherwise we would all be going round stabbing each other because we hadn't the status or achievement of Bill Gates

 

Society is not equal or fair, it never has been and never will be and the billions of people around the world who get a raw deal do not automatically turn to crime. In fact Monaco has probably the greatest difference between rich and poor and is virtually (street) crime free

 

I'm with Gladys on the welfare issue, we are paying people to laze around all day and breed , take a walk round town on a weekday afternoon and count the number of track suits & baseball cap types. What are they doing ? what are they living on ? whatever it is it isn't work

 

We are a small and well funded nation, we should start by rounding up all the non local scum and sending them back to Mersey/Moss side

 

All the locals who are fit to work should have their benefits withdrawn and government should provide free nursery care to allow all the pram toting single mums the opportunity to get back to work

 

That's my idea of an equal society, everyone gets the chance to work their arses off and pay bloody taxes like I do

[thesultanofsheight]

We can dress it up how we like, blame social breakdown, lack of discipline, or the police and court system not being tough on crime but you know mostly these things happen because the people involved are just dickheads and every day there seems to be more dickheads in this world.

 

As immortalpuppet alluded to in one of his earlier posts sometimes people just wake up and realise that they don't want to be a dickhead for the rest of their life and do something about it. The rest .. we'll they're just dickheads.

[Roger Smelly]

Lucky they have built the new jail.

 

I reckon there will be shootings in a few years time.

 

No wonder ramsey is becoming the better choice for home buyers.

[silverfoxie]

Why is Ramsey the better choice for home buyers please Roger Smelly??? Please tell????