[BBC News] Pair held after double stabbing

[manxy]

Some great input and its been fascinating reading through this, but what is the answer to the many problems?

1/ Does society begin with problem children as a starting point and if not, where do you start?

2/ Will society assist troubled parents/single parents with parenthood classes?

3/ Would reducing benefits to those who are unlikely to work, actually work?

4/ Is sending people to prison the only answer or is it at a certain stage of offending?

5/ Is society too liberal with young people who continually offend?

 

I've started a few questions off and like I mentioned earlier, there's some good write ups. It would be interesting however, to see if the Forum can come up with further questions and answers, before it loses steam and lost behind other threads and who knows, maybe someone sitting behind a plush desk is reading this and has the clout to alter things?

I would like to think so, because the news seems to be going the same way as that of across and if things are not in place soon, I fear it will spiral out of control.

Reminds me of Dads Army (Scottish guy) "We're all doomed, doomed I tell you"

Maybe thats pushing the boat out too far but I'm sure that most if not all are concerned.

[WTF]

1/ problem children are usually the result of lack of discipline, with the namby can't smack brigade running things this can only get worse as discipline is lost. pain and discomfort is a way of control, whether is is classed as education or conditioning is another matter, but it works on most people.

 

2/ ?? i think it is more a question of what not to do rather than what to do to bring up kids.

 

3/ reducing benefits should work to some extent. most people know a single parent of the allegedly poorer kind living on benefits, the biggest spongers seem to afford sky and big flat screen TV's. the kids all have bikes and video games and the whole family is clothed in labelled clothing!! ( possibly a slight exageration, but you get the drift ). most of the stuff people want as standard are in effect luxery items that are not necessary for life/existance at a reasonable level. IF instead of being dealt out houses they were in a hostel of some kind people would be far less likely to want to be in the situation and actually work so they could get out of it. the snag is that many people are better off or atleast break even on benefits so see work as not worth doing, other than pride ( which is as rare as swans pubes ) there is no actual point for them to work. the kids see that doing nowt is the way to go and so on. i know a few people that have started families to jump the waiting list for a corpy house, that option should not exist.

 

4/ people should be punished for the second crime they do ( anyone can make a mistake or have a lapse in judgement ) i'm talking minor theft or twatting some annoying erk while highly provoked, obvioiusly murder doesn't allow for a 'chance', even then though they get let off with probation, minor fines, 'last chance' ha fuckin ha, etc. there is no real penalty for minor shit as the system can't be bothered and it is left to slide. IF you get away with little stuff you move up to bigger stuff and expect to get away with it. you have already lost the fear of the system and the consequences which should actually be consequences.

 

5/ YES, absoultely, which is the main problem that allows or encourages ( by not stomping out ) anti social, abusive, violent and thieving conduct, also add vandalism which in my books is jeleously along the lines of i haven't got one, so i'm smashing yours so you haven't either, i feel it makes you look better than me for having it and i'm a lazy twat that won't work but i want to keep up with Mr Jones ( or drag him back to me ). ( back to status symbols and labels again )

[ai_Droid]

1/ problem children are usually the result of lack of discipline, with the namby can't smack brigade running things this can only get worse as discipline is lost. pain and discomfort is a way of control, whether is is classed as education or conditioning is another matter, but it works on most people.

 

Get away with you. You're suggesting violence is the only way to teach kids discipline? Utter rot.

[Frances]

I believe one problem has been the effective disappearance of the extended family - as a child I could walk to two sets of grandparents and 8 sets of aunts/uncles (+ other honorary aunts etc) - thus there was always help on hand for my parents with their family (and vice versa for my cousins etc), one side effect was of course an extended social reporting network in which any transgression was likely to be commented upon but also there was encouragement & help offered.

Possibibly society was less consumer oriented, certainly money + goods were in short supply (it was post war) certainly little of the agressive selling towards children that is so dominant today but as children we still desired certain goods with high status amongst our peers.

[WTF]

1/ problem children are usually the result of lack of discipline, with the namby can't smack brigade running things this can only get worse as discipline is lost. pain and discomfort is a way of control, whether is is classed as education or conditioning is another matter, but it works on most people.

 

Get away with you. You're suggesting violence is the only way to teach kids discipline? Utter rot.

 

not the only way, but a very effective way for the majority.

[Albert Tatlock]

You're suggesting violence is the only way to teach kids discipline? Utter rot.

Oh yes, I can just see you trying to reason/waffle your way out of a good kicking by a couple of scallies, as you walk minding your own business, on the prom. The only difference between those sort of scallies and some undisciplined lads aged 10, 11 etc. is their age/size and their ability to kick the sh1t out of you.

 

For those that obviously can't be rehabilitated, bollocks to namby-pambyness...Birch the worst tykes from age 11 upwards I say - and continue till they are 25 or locked up if they still can't be rehabilitated. Many people in the educational system have a damn good idea who the people are that are likely to be locked up in the future - usually those that don't fear/learn, or are not being taught, the consequences of their actions by parents or the educational system.

 

Let's put you in a house with neighbouring houses full of these feral types, where you hear drunken rows and people fighting in the street at 3am, music blaring at all times of the day and night from state-funded-mum high on booze or some drug or other (or she's just come back with a 'bloke' from the local 'no-go' pub), whilst her six feral unwashed kids (each with a different father) roam the streets - continually nicking things out of your garden and damaging your nice car etc. - and then let's hear what you say has to be done.

 

You'll be claiming you can reason with a hungry hungry hippo chasing you, next.

[jimbms]

1/ problem children are usually the result of lack of discipline, with the namby can't smack brigade running things this can only get worse as discipline is lost. pain and discomfort is a way of control, whether is is classed as education or conditioning is another matter, but it works on most people.

 

Get away with you. You're suggesting violence is the only way to teach kids discipline? Utter rot.

Lets compare:

1960's teachers could discipline kids, parents could discipline kids and the local copper could give them a clip round the earhole or the older ones a good slap. Juvenile crime figures low, incidents of violence towards teachers virtualy non existant.

 

2007 teachers can't discipline kids, parents can't discipline kids and the local copper can't give them a clip round the earhole or the older ones a good slap. Juvenile crime figures high, incidents of violence towards teachers high.

 

Does anyone else see a link here with discipline crime and respect?

[thebees]

OMFG, you maniacs! Haven't you noticed how many more people there are now compared to then?

[Frances]

1966 resident population 49,312

2000 estimated resident population 74,900

(source D G Kermode Offshore Island Politics

thus 50% increase (my estimate is 60% increase in population to c 2007) - in 1960's about 30% UK born, 2000 about 45% UK born

(corrected my arithmetic etc)

[jimbms]

OMFG, you maniacs! Haven't you noticed how many more people there are now compared to then?

OMFG you plonker haven't you noticed the Juvenile crime has increased a lot higher than the growth in population or was mathematics and statistics a subject you avoided at school.

[ai_Droid]

You'll be claiming you can reason with a hungry hungry hippo chasing you, next.

 

Everything you outlined was a failure to discipline, not a failure to discipline using voilence. There's a difference.

[DjDan]

Some great input and its been fascinating reading through this, but what is the answer to the many problems?

1/ Does society begin with problem children as a starting point and if not, where do you start?

 

Problem children is definately a starting point, but I think there needs to be a broader approach, tackling parents and society in general too.

 

It is difficult to say what exactly is the root of the problems, but easier to see the effects of those problems around us. One obvious problem that we see is a lack of respect. I think that really is the key to a lot of the problems.

 

Now I have no intention at all of stealing anything. No intention at all of punching someone.... no intention of shouting abuse at someone. No intention, of doing anything that will cause direct offence to anyone, unless of course the situation properly warrants it. That is due in large to my upbringing and character that I now have. I was taught respect. Compare that to the attitude of some of these people with no respect. Often we see a total 'non-caring' attitude. They don't care who they offend or how.

 

We can look at schools and see the huge problems that a lack of respect has caused. Children who have no respect cannot be instructed. They cannot be restrained. It doesn't matter who speaks to them, if they have no respect, they won't listen. They swear at teachers, mock them to their face and sometimes threaten them. Where as, look at the schools in Africa - where the children are silent immediately when the teacher walks in the room. They address the teacher as "sir", or "miss" and speak politely at all times. When the teacher speaks to them, they listen and follow instructions. They have respect, where as the problem children here - at large - have none.

 

Until you can teach a child to respect another... you will never solve the problem.

 

Now, how to teach respect?

 

1) Example

2) Instruction, correction - with love

3) Enforcement (discipline)

4) Repetition

 

Unfortunately, these points are often lacking in family life today. There has been a tremendous breakdown of the family (for a number of reasons). The family is the foundation of society. What you learn within the four walls of your family home will impact you significantly for the rest of your life. Get the first 15 or so years of a child's life wrong there... and you'll spend a long time thereafter trying to make up for it.

 

I have to leave it there right now.. but to recap on what I've said so far: We have to teach respect - and in all walks of life. In the home, in the schools, in the social clubs... on the street.. everywhere. Until we have children who respect other people, these problems of 'unsocial behaviour' will continue spiralling out of control.

[WTF]

You'll be claiming you can reason with a hungry hungry hippo chasing you, next.

 

Everything you outlined was a failure to discipline, not a failure to discipline using voilence. There's a difference.

 

 

yes there is, one works on the majority at an early age and the other is reteric,.

[shoepatshoe]

OMFG, you maniacs! Haven't you noticed how many more people there are now compared to then?

 

It's people like you who have caused all the damn problems.

 

Too much whining about peoples human rights.

 

In my family there have been two men who were in the police back in the 50's and '60s. They would often tell stories about how they would approach gangs of youths who were loitering around on the streets and tell them in no uncertain terms to disappear off the streets and stop hanging around in a gang. The gangs of smoking teenagers would reluctantly drag themselves off into the distance and no trouble would break out. Why? Because <and I quote> "All it took was a couple of jabs in the ribs with my nightstick and they got the message".

 

No matter how hard you think you are - a light smack round the head with a truncheon is still going to hurt and make you reconsider how clever you are being.

 

Give the police the power to give these kids a bit of instant punishment and see what happens. And if their parents don't like it, give them a smack too. And if they still don't get the message THEN give them the birch.

[Albert Tatlock]

Where as, look at the schools in Africa - where the children are silent immediately when the teacher walks in the room. They address the teacher as "sir", or "miss" and speak politely at all times. When the teacher speaks to them, they listen and follow instructions. They have respect, where as the problem children here - at large - have none.

The difference in much of Africa is that school is seen as a way of getting out of poverty which is rife there. Get expelled there and you're back in the gutter, work on a farm and get ill - and you probably can't afford treatment at the doctors so are likely to die from something seen as simple to deal with here. They also still have a generally very religious background.

 

Everything here is now taken for granted. Fall in the gutter here and the state throws money at you. Perhaps part of the rehabilitation process would be to send some of these problems kids to board in schools in Africa for a year.