E-borders Referred To In Chief Secretaries Service Delivery Plan 2008!

[ai_Droid]

Your reference to RIM and India also to me show a weakness in your faith that US corportions won't cooperate with the US and other authorities to give them "back door" traceablility, readability etc.

 

The commonly used algorythms are open source, if there was a back door, we'd know about it. Monitoring at RIM? Possible, but difficult, as the encryption is between the end user device and the BES installed in corporates. Bloody hard to snoop on basically.

 

In China Yahoo just handed over ISP and email information from Hong Kong into the mainland with no legal justification just to maintain business cooperation with the CPC.

 

Sure, specific monitoring like this can happen at an ISP level, it all depends on how much they log and store. Any of the manx telecom guys on here for example could go onto your manx.net account and copy your mail, and probably have done in response to a warrant. They could, I'm sure, get your login associated with an ip address and retrieve stuff like your browsing history and dns lookups, but ISP's have been at loggerheads with the govenment on level of logging, there's simply too much for them to keep economically. This pretty much only effects the average user tho, anyone with half a brain who doesn't want to be recorded could avoid such things very easily indeed.

 

That's all different from the kind of global monitoring/evesdropping we're talking about here.

 

My understanding is that the Patriot Act and its successors have produced an environment where the US intelligence agencies are actively demanding cooperation - and Presidential executive orders (maybe unconstitutionally) have further increased these demands.

Obviously practically this probably has little relevence to the IOM, BUT money laundering etc will mean very powerful US agencies will have an interest in finding out about some "business" operations on going on the Island. Do you really say there is no possiblility of them attempting to read IOM emails?

 

There's possibilities, with cooperation with ISPs, but it's almost impossible to do something on an internet wide scale. There's many examples that back this up, like the already mentioned cases of child porn rings which are often caught through other forms of monitoring such as credit card payments, or the large scale piracy operations like Oink, which are caught through infiltration onto the servers by pretending to be valid users, followed up by confescation of the hardware with the cooperation of the isp's and local police rather than any kind of covert evesdropping.

[Dodger]

The debate is about surveillance policy.

 

No it isn't. The (stupid) statement I question is Dodgers bumbling:

 

"Guess which company is responsible for the E Borders technology............Raytheon, the parent company is in the USA, so looks likely that the data would link through at some stage! "

 

This assumption that because a US company is involved, that all data is available to the US is daft.

 

So you didn't bother to read the article and for some reason you feel that your opinion is more important than others? "extrajudicial surveillance of European and other foreigners’ activities that is being conducted by the United States on the basis of traffic data and content communications." http://www.statewatch.org/news/2008/apr/ac...u-dp-letter.pdf

 

Can you provide those of us who don't feel happy with all this any proof that the data won't/can't be intercepted if it travels through another jurisdiction, when they have a law that lets them?

 

Freedom of information will not work on this topic as it would be against national security!

[triskelion]

You have provided no proof that the data will/can be intercepted, yet call upon those who have pointed out the internet is almost impossible to monitor except at ISP level (which is not happening) to prove that it isn't?

 

Give it up!

[Slim]

So you didn't bother to read the article and for some reason you feel that your opinion is more important than others? "extrajudicial surveillance of European and other foreigners’ activities that is being conducted by the United States on the basis of traffic data and content communications." http://www.statewatch.org/news/2008/apr/ac...u-dp-letter.pdf

 

Can you provide those of us who don't feel happy with all this any proof that the data won't/can't be intercepted if it travels through another jurisdiction, when they have a law that lets them?

 

Freedom of information will not work on this topic as it would be against national security!

 

Of course I read it. I don't think my opinion is more important, I also don't believe everything I read. That letter you link is misleading, it doesn't talk in specifics and it generates fear in tin hatters like you who love stuff like that so you can generate your own conclusions. I've never doubted for a second that surveillance is happening, what I've argued about is the scale and what is possible with online surveillance, which you seem to have no understanding of.

 

Yes, I can provide proof that data wont/can't be intercepted, even if the law allows it. I can do it here:

 

hIwDAgRLABzXpVEBBADYaQWBAlDt8cr8TX12fKkMlduHVLnc9Q50oejYc8yU

kLR7AmNjfFiymtJ+aLT+r35LynWZpcO5nZe1zOTrPLzSzrrHMuRGj8zhtnvt

xvV//6RR/3O5erN6zlzjgpdAVxAWKdtpeoNcrD8ElewE6KpJOHIS9BF6ByTe

/ToQjKzS1KQ///CER5Pw+aRE9UDZYkckTo68romKiLMvIkPeVKhxqPtYYlj2

GDR7oLyQejShL4CO4bb8IWLDpRbLTukUpNfx

 

What did I say?

[Cronky]

I've never doubted for a second that surveillance is happening, what I've argued about is the scale and what is possible with online surveillance,

 

The most important issue, as far as I am concerned, is to have a debate about what is private and what is not. How else are we to have any influence over the security and privacy of our personal data?

[Slim]

I've never doubted for a second that surveillance is happening, what I've argued about is the scale and what is possible with online surveillance,

 

The most important issue, as far as I am concerned, is to have a debate about what is private and what is not. How else are we to have any influence over the security and privacy of our personal data?

 

But that's the point, don't you see? Your ignorance of the subject is clouding your judgement.

[Cronky]

But there are two debates. On the one hand the technical capabilities of modern mass surveillance. On the other hand the legal and political debate of the type highlighted by the UK Information Commissioner.

 

The Human Rights Act gaurantees the right to a 'private and family life'.

 

Who decides where to draw the line?

[Dodger]

You have provided no proof that the data will/can be intercepted, yet call upon those who have pointed out the internet is almost impossible to monitor except at ISP level (which is not happening) to prove that it isn't?

 

Give it up!

 

Nope!

 

"Personal information collected on Microsoft sites and services may be stored and processed in the United States or any other country in which Microsoft or its affiliates, subsidiaries or agents maintain facilities, and by using a Microsoft site or service, you consent to any such transfer of information outside of your country. Microsoft abides by the safe harbor framework as set forth by the U.S. Department of Commerce regarding the collection, use, and retention of data from the European Union."

 

Extract from the Microsoft online privacy document located http://privacy.microsoft.com/en-us/fullnotice.aspx

 

Safe Harbor framework - "Information Collected from E-Mail, Forms and through Site Registration:

 

Information you submit may be viewed by various people within the ITA and other Federal agencies actively involved with international trade. If you register on one of our web sites to obtain a benefit, report a trade complaint or use any of our services, you may submit personally identifiable information, such as name, title, name/size of company, or address. Certain ITA services are reserved for U.S. firms and we may use the registration information to contact you for verification purposes before allowing access to the requested service. Information collected from the public on our websites has been authorized by The Office of Management and Budget (OMB) as required under the Paperwork Reduction Act. "http://www.export.gov/about/exp_000875.asp

 

"Collection of Your Personal Information

At some Microsoft sites, we ask you to provide personal information, such as your e-mail address, name, home or work address or telephone number. We may also collect demographic information, such as your ZIP code, age, gender, preferences, interests and favorites. If you choose to make a purchase or sign up for a paid subscription service, we will ask for additional information, such as your credit card number and billing address, that is used to create a Microsoft billing account.

 

In order to access some Microsoft services, you will be asked to sign in with an e-mail address and password, which we refer to as your credentials. In most cases, these credentials will be part of the Windows Live ID or Microsoft Passport Network credential. You can use the same credentials to sign in to many different Microsoft sites and services, as well as those of select Microsoft partners. By signing in on one Microsoft site or service, you may be automatically signed into other Microsoft sites and services. If you access our services via a mobile phone, you may also use your telephone number and a PIN as an alternative credential to your username and password. As part of creating your credentials, you may also be requested to provide questions and secret answers, which we use to help verify your identity and assist in resetting your password, as well as an alternate email address. Some services may require added security, and in these cases, you may be asked to create an additional security key. Finally, a unique ID number will be assigned to your credentials which will be used to identify your credentials and associated information. " So much for hotmail!

 

ANS - I haven't got a Manx.net account, though it is run by Manx telecom which is a wholly owned subsidiary of Telefónica O2 Europe plc. Which is listed on multiple stock exchanges, including the USA. Data trasferred between two manx.net accounts are unlikely to be transferred to the parent database or even transit through. Though data collected could be, basically the settup data, name address etc. As this data could be used to target mail shots from the parent company or one of its affiliates.

 

The closest I could find by going up the corporate ladder was "The State jurisdictional agencies, such as the Tax Office and other bodies of the different Public Administrations, have asked for information and action from our Company in their respective areas of competence, in which Telefónica is obliged to carry out instructions issued from them or to provide the required information. The legitimate action of the mentioned public bodies in carrying out their functions at times comes into conflict with the, also legitimate, rights of people. Therefore, the requirements demanded with respect to the legal raising of telecommunications secrecy are strictly fulfilled both in the Constitution and in the Law of Criminal Judgement, through the intervention and observation of communications or the connection to the circuit of malicious calls. Responsibility in the service offered" http://www.telefonica.es/acercadetelefonica/eng/pdf/IaRC.pdf

 

This makes me think that if a law is amended as is suggested by the surveillance commissioner then the information could be tracked between to manx.net accounts.

 

Your thoughts?

[Slim]

"Personal information collected on Microsoft sites and services may be stored and processed in the United States or any other country in which Microsoft or its affiliates, subsidiaries or agents maintain facilities, and by using a Microsoft site or service, you consent to any such transfer of information outside of your country. Microsoft abides by the safe harbor framework as set forth by the U.S. Department of Commerce regarding the collection, use, and retention of data from the European Union."

Extract from the Microsoft online privacy document located http://privacy.microsoft.com/en-us/fullnotice.aspx

Safe Harbor framework - "Information Collected from E-Mail, Forms and through Site Registration:

Information you submit may be viewed by various people within the ITA and other Federal agencies actively involved with international trade. If you register on one of our web sites to obtain a benefit, report a trade complaint or use any of our services, you may submit personally identifiable information, such as name, title, name/size of company, or address. Certain ITA services are reserved for U.S. firms and we may use the registration information to contact you for verification purposes before allowing access to the requested service. Information collected from the public on our websites has been authorized by The Office of Management and Budget (OMB) as required under the Paperwork Reduction Act. "http://www.export.gov/about/exp_000875.asp

"Collection of Your Personal Information

At some Microsoft sites, we ask you to provide personal information, such as your e-mail address, name, home or work address or telephone number. We may also collect demographic information, such as your ZIP code, age, gender, preferences, interests and favorites. If you choose to make a purchase or sign up for a paid subscription service, we will ask for additional information, such as your credit card number and billing address, that is used to create a Microsoft billing account.

In order to access some Microsoft services, you will be asked to sign in with an e-mail address and password, which we refer to as your credentials. In most cases, these credentials will be part of the Windows Live ID or Microsoft Passport Network credential. You can use the same credentials to sign in to many different Microsoft sites and services, as well as those of select Microsoft partners. By signing in on one Microsoft site or service, you may be automatically signed into other Microsoft sites and services. If you access our services via a mobile phone, you may also use your telephone number and a PIN as an alternative credential to your username and password. As part of creating your credentials, you may also be requested to provide questions and secret answers, which we use to help verify your identity and assist in resetting your password, as well as an alternate email address. Some services may require added security, and in these cases, you may be asked to create an additional security key. Finally, a unique ID number will be assigned to your credentials which will be used to identify your credentials and associated information. " So much for hotmail!

 

This is all regarding information you chose to give. This information may be shared by a company, its affiliates, or the government if requested. What's the drama? If it's private, you don't give it out, bosh.

 

 

ANS - I haven't got a Manx.net account, though it is run by Manx telecom which is a wholly owned subsidiary of Telefónica O2 Europe plc. Which is listed on multiple stock exchanges, including the USA. Data trasferred between two manx.net accounts are unlikely to be transferred to the parent database or even transit through. Though data collected could be, basically the settup data, name address etc. As this data could be used to target mail shots from the parent company or one of its affiliates.

The closest I could find by going up the corporate ladder was "The State jurisdictional agencies, such as the Tax Office and other bodies of the different Public Administrations, have asked for information and action from our Company in their respective areas of competence, in which Telefónica is obliged to carry out instructions issued from them or to provide the required information. The legitimate action of the mentioned public bodies in carrying out their functions at times comes into conflict with the, also legitimate, rights of people. Therefore, the requirements demanded with respect to the legal raising of telecommunications secrecy are strictly fulfilled both in the Constitution and in the Law of Criminal Judgement, through the intervention and observation of communications or the connection to the circuit of malicious calls. Responsibility in the service offered" http://www.telefonica.es/acercadetelefonica/eng/pdf/IaRC.pdf

This makes me think that if a law is amended as is suggested by the surveillance commissioner then the information could be tracked between to manx.net accounts.

 

The question was specific to emails, are you suggesting that Telefonica are logging and keeping communcations between manx.net accounts? Are you mad?

 

Your thoughts?

 

That you're a tin hat wearing loony without a clue.

[Alias]

Do you know how big a company Ratheon (in the top 5 defence contractors) is? They're hardly some NSA skeleton company; this isn't saying they wouldn't be involved in NSA programmes involving this contract, but if they are it potentially undermines a lot more than port security.

[Dodger]

"Personal information collected on Microsoft sites and services may be stored and processed in the United States or any other country in which Microsoft or its affiliates, subsidiaries or agents maintain facilities, and by using a Microsoft site or service, you consent to any such transfer of information outside of your country. Microsoft abides by the safe harbor framework as set forth by the U.S. Department of Commerce regarding the collection, use, and retention of data from the European Union."

Extract from the Microsoft online privacy document located http://privacy.microsoft.com/en-us/fullnotice.aspx

Safe Harbor framework - "Information Collected from E-Mail, Forms and through Site Registration:

Information you submit may be viewed by various people within the ITA and other Federal agencies actively involved with international trade. If you register on one of our web sites to obtain a benefit, report a trade complaint or use any of our services, you may submit personally identifiable information, such as name, title, name/size of company, or address. Certain ITA services are reserved for U.S. firms and we may use the registration information to contact you for verification purposes before allowing access to the requested service. Information collected from the public on our websites has been authorized by The Office of Management and Budget (OMB) as required under the Paperwork Reduction Act. "http://www.export.gov/about/exp_000875.asp

"Collection of Your Personal Information

At some Microsoft sites, we ask you to provide personal information, such as your e-mail address, name, home or work address or telephone number. We may also collect demographic information, such as your ZIP code, age, gender, preferences, interests and favorites. If you choose to make a purchase or sign up for a paid subscription service, we will ask for additional information, such as your credit card number and billing address, that is used to create a Microsoft billing account.

In order to access some Microsoft services, you will be asked to sign in with an e-mail address and password, which we refer to as your credentials. In most cases, these credentials will be part of the Windows Live ID or Microsoft Passport Network credential. You can use the same credentials to sign in to many different Microsoft sites and services, as well as those of select Microsoft partners. By signing in on one Microsoft site or service, you may be automatically signed into other Microsoft sites and services. If you access our services via a mobile phone, you may also use your telephone number and a PIN as an alternative credential to your username and password. As part of creating your credentials, you may also be requested to provide questions and secret answers, which we use to help verify your identity and assist in resetting your password, as well as an alternate email address. Some services may require added security, and in these cases, you may be asked to create an additional security key. Finally, a unique ID number will be assigned to your credentials which will be used to identify your credentials and associated information. " So much for hotmail!

 

This is all regarding information you chose to give. This information may be shared by a company, its affiliates, or the government if requested. What's the drama? If it's private, you don't give it out, bosh.

 

 

ANS - I haven't got a Manx.net account, though it is run by Manx telecom which is a wholly owned subsidiary of Telefónica O2 Europe plc. Which is listed on multiple stock exchanges, including the USA. Data trasferred between two manx.net accounts are unlikely to be transferred to the parent database or even transit through. Though data collected could be, basically the settup data, name address etc. As this data could be used to target mail shots from the parent company or one of its affiliates.

The closest I could find by going up the corporate ladder was "The State jurisdictional agencies, such as the Tax Office and other bodies of the different Public Administrations, have asked for information and action from our Company in their respective areas of competence, in which Telefónica is obliged to carry out instructions issued from them or to provide the required information. The legitimate action of the mentioned public bodies in carrying out their functions at times comes into conflict with the, also legitimate, rights of people. Therefore, the requirements demanded with respect to the legal raising of telecommunications secrecy are strictly fulfilled both in the Constitution and in the Law of Criminal Judgement, through the intervention and observation of communications or the connection to the circuit of malicious calls. Responsibility in the service offered" http://www.telefonica.es/acercadetelefonica/eng/pdf/IaRC.pdf

This makes me think that if a law is amended as is suggested by the surveillance commissioner then the information could be tracked between to manx.net accounts.

 

The question was specific to emails, are you suggesting that Telefonica are logging and keeping communcations between manx.net accounts? Are you mad?

 

Your thoughts?

 

That you're a tin hat wearing loony without a clue.

 

"This is all regarding information you chose to give. This information may be shared by a company, its affiliates, or the government if requested. What's the drama? If it's private, you don't give it out, bosh. "

 

Good answer - With E Borders you don't get an option you will HAVE to give the details otherwise you will not be able to travel! Unless you plan to travel on a fake passport? Fake fingerprints, signature, credit card, booking reference etc etc!

[Slim]

Good answer - With E Borders you don't get an option you will HAVE to give the details otherwise you will not be able to travel! Unless you plan to travel on a fake passport? Fake fingerprints, signature, credit card, booking reference etc etc!

 

 

What has microsofts terms and conditions for data capture on a web form got to do with eborders? You're a loon mate.

[Cronky]

The point is that ultimately you have choice as to whether to give information to private commercial organsiations. But e-Borders will be compulsory. Where I travel, and how often, is my business. Why should the UK Home Office monitor my movements and keep a ten year log of the data?

[ai_Droid]

The point is that ultimately you have choice as to whether to give information to private commercial organsiations. But e-Borders will be compulsory. Where I travel, and how often, is my business. Why should the UK Home Office monitor my movements and keep a ten year log of the data?

 

You know why, don't be daft. This isn't anything new, visas were always tracked, passports were stamped, your movements were recorded in airline ticketing systems. This is just more streamlined and better secured.

 

What, essentially, is the problem with the governmnet keeping a record of where you've been? I don't give a damn personally, let them.

[Cronky]

Fine. Your point of view is that you don't mind the Government keeping a vast amount of personal information about you.

 

Other people disagree and argue that, to prevent abuse of the system, the Government should only be allowed to keep what is reasonable and proportionate for the circumstances. e-Borders is a database of who you are and where you go. We haven't previously been subject to such a sophisticated system of spying on our lives. The issues need to be debated to prevent abuse of freedom and privacy.

 

My point of view is that we have a right to a 'private and family life' and that the Human Rights Act should be respected.

 

I would hasten to add that I do not (yet) have a complaint about how the Isle of Man Government handles this situation. However, the situation in the UK, and its encroachment upon the Isle of Man, is very concerning.